Trinity Church: The Gift That Keeps Giving

[A_Wanderer]

More videos from a supposed Obama spiritual advisor, I especially like the anti-Hillary rant - it is like bits of FYM have been stuck onto a pulpit.

Yes it comes from a hack journo's site, so just pretend it is a campaign ad for the general election.

Pastor Otis Moss: He needs no introduction. He’s a friend of Trinity, he’s a brother beloved. He’s a preacher par excellence. He’s a prophetic, powerful pulpiteer. He is our friend. He is our brother. He is none other than Father Michael Pfleger. (Crowd on its feet, standing ovation, loud applause). We welcome him once again…

…Pfleger: [Unintelligible] to address the one who says, “Well, don’t hold me responsible (gesticulating) for what my ancestors did. But you have enjoyed the benefits of what your ancestors did and unless you are ready to give up the benefits (voice rising), throw away your 401 fund, throw away your trust fund, throw away all the money you put into the company you WALKED INTO BECAUSE YO’ DADDY AND YO’ GRANDDADDY AND YO’ GREATGRANDDADDY–(screaming at the top of his lungs)–UNLESS YOU’RE WILLING TO GIVE UP THE BENEFITS, THEN YOU MUST BE REPSONSIBLE FOR WHAT WAS DONE IN YOUR GENERATION ‘CUZ YOU ARE THE BENEFICIARY OF THIS INSURANCE POLICY! (Wild gestures, wild applause).

…We must be honest enough to expose white entitlement and supremacy wherever it raises its head.

I said before I don’t want this to be politica because, you know, I’m very unpolitical (mocking tone, huge laughter).

…When Hillary was crying (gesturing tears, uproarious laughter from audience)–and people said that was put on–I really don’t believe it was put on.

I really believe that she just always thought ‘This is mine’ (laughter, hoots). ‘I’m Bill’s wife. I’m WHITE. And this is mine. And I jus’ gotta get up. And step into the plate. And then out of nowhere came, ‘Hey, I’m Barack Obama.’ And she said: ‘Oh, damn!’ WHERE DID YOU COME FROM!?!?! (Crowd going nuts, Pfleger screaming). I’M WHITE! I’M ENTITLED! THERE’S A BLACK MAN STEALING MY SHOW. (SOBS!) SHE WASN’T THE ONLY ONE CRYING! THERE WAS A WHOLE LOTTA WHITE PEOPLE CRYING!

I’m sorry. I don’t wanna get you in any mo’ trouble. The livestreaming just went out again…

Michelle Malkin � He’s baaaack: Obama supporter Rev. Michael Pfleger flogs Hillary’s “white entitlement” on the pulpit

and the wonderful video of the tirade

YouTube - Obama's Church: Hillary Cried Because White Supremacy Failed

I feel that it's great that the religious connections of candidates both left and right are being treated with more contempt and criticism, sure it is done by partisan groups and hypocrites but its getting done nonetheless.

Politically useful religiosity that gets unbelievers elected is dishonest and harmful, wouldn't it be cool if these sparks of partisan awareness of that led to a cultural change.

[Bluer White]

One has to wonder if this sort of rhetoric hasn't been commonplace in the Trinity church for many many years.

[2861U2]

That church is full of nuts.

Can somebody PLEASE tell me what place such political crap and racism has in a house of God? How on Earth does that have ANYTHING to do with the Gospel or what Sunday mornings are supposed to be focused on? It's quite a shame.

[A_Wanderer]

Don't you believe in social justice?

Your own candidates connections to toxic Christians have been getting minor air play but do you consider them equally out of line?

Are you consistent in keeping religion and politics separate, do you support a secular agenda?

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by A_Wanderer

Don't you believe in social justice?

How is Pfleger's complete misrepresentation of Hillary fighting for social justice?

Originally Posted by A_Wanderer

Your own candidates connections to toxic Christians have been getting minor air play but do you consider them equally out of line?

Some of Hagee's comments that I've read have been out of line, certainly. That said, anyone who tries to compare McCain's relationship with Hagee to Obama & Wright is foolish. I even heard one analyst on MSNBC say McCain's relationship is worse.

What I want to see churches doing is talking about love and God and forgiveness and discipleship on Sunday mornings. Watching people like Pfleger and Wright rant about politics is embarrassing. If a church really wants to be a successful church, it needs to preach these things. If a church and its members want to truly change the world and have a positive impact, that is how you do it, not by talking about race, however important of an issue it may be.

[deep]

Rev Wright and Rev. Pfleger make Rev. Jesse Jackson look like a reasonable, rationale person.

These associations and endorsements listed on Obama's website plus his long time association with these people will be very problematic for Obama,
if this is a close election.

[A_Wanderer]

How is it foolish? In both examples you have candidates that court religious bigots for votes. At least Obama comes to faith for purely pragmatic vote-getting reasons and doesn't embellish it that much. That he keeps an association with Wright shows a lack of political judgment, it doesn't say that he is a religiously minded bigot.

Leftist social activism under a religious mantle is off-putting, but of the few things you may say is that it is at least somewhat inclusive, it is not a redeeming feature given the exceptions but it is there. When it comes to the Christian Right they have a proven track record of taking their bigotry and enforcing it as a law of the land.

When Obama embraces these religious leaders he is getting votes in the South Side and all he just has to deliver secular political promises. When McCain is getting endorsements from the Christian Right he has to deliver policies and nominees that blur the line between Church and State. I think that the latter is more harmful to a secular liberal democracy.

[A_Wanderer]

Originally Posted by deep

Rev Wright and Rev. Pfleger make Rev. Jesse Jackson look like a reasonable, rationale person.

These associations and endorsements listed on Obama's website plus his long time association with these people will be very problematic for Obama,
if this is a close election.

Just going by the right wing blogs the 'message' of the groups completely and utterly unrelated to McCain in any way shape or form will be.
> Obama is anti-American, evidenced by his wifes comments and his willingness to stay in a Church with zany racist politics
> Obama will take peoples guns away
> Obama has no problem talking and by extension capitulating to terrorists and oppressive governments around the globe
> Obama's connections to the extreme left will influence him if he gets elected

It doesn't matter if any of the above are true or not, there is enough material out there to spin it into a tale with some verisimilitude.

[deep]

Obama distances himself from another clergyman - Yahoo! News

Well, at least Obama acted on this one.

There is no real danger in condemning it.

[melon]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

That church is full of nuts.

Can somebody PLEASE tell me what place such political crap and racism has in a house of God? How on Earth does that have ANYTHING to do with the Gospel or what Sunday mornings are supposed to be focused on? It's quite a shame.

I dunno. Ask the Christian Coalition sometime. They were the ones who pretty started the politicization of religion in this country.

[yolland]

Originally Posted by deep

Obama distances himself from another clergyman - Yahoo! News

Pfleger, the white pastor of predominantly black Saint Sabina Roman Catholic Church on the city's Southwest side, said he regretted his choice of words.

"These words are inconsistent with Senator Obama's life and message and I am deeply sorry if they offended Senator Clinton or anyone else who saw them," Pfleger said.

If he's that ready to apologize then why did he say it at all? What a pig.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

That church is full of nuts.

Can somebody PLEASE tell me what place such political crap and racism has in a house of God? How on Earth does that have ANYTHING to do with the Gospel or what Sunday mornings are supposed to be focused on? It's quite a shame.

this does beg the question as to what abortion and the hatred of gay people ahve to do with Sunday mornings as well ... just to pick a few topics. can churches only be political if they are conservative?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Some of Hagee's comments that I've read have been out of line, certainly. That said, anyone who tries to compare McCain's relationship with Hagee to Obama & Wright is foolish. I even heard one analyst on MSNBC say McCain's relationship is worse.

McCain actively wooed the support and eventual endorsement of Hagee in order to shore up the conservative christians who don't particularly like him.

i find that a less profound relationship than Obama to Wright, no question, but a far more cynical move on McCain's part. he's willing to say nice things about a (to me) far, far more offensive pastor in order to gain political support, whereas Obama tried to stick by someone who he had a long personal relationship with. and there's no question, whatsoever, that the Republican Party (if not McCain himself) is far, far more in bed with the Hagees of the world (the Robertsons, the Dobsons, the Fallwells, the Perkins, those women who are *very* Concerned for America) than the Democrats are with any sort of left wing style Christianity.

however, do these two clowns -- Wright and Hagee -- speak for either candidate?

we all know the answer to that, and i think we're all smart enough to know better than to get caught up in this nonsense.

[A_Wanderer]

Reciprocity

Typical of Mr. Obama’s earmarks was a $100,000 grant for a youth center at a Catholic church run by the Rev. Michael Pfleger, a controversial priest who was one of the few South Side clergymen to back Mr. Obama against Mr. Rush.

Father Pfleger has long worked with South Side political leaders to reduce crime and improve the community. But he has drawn fire from some quarters for defending the Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and inviting him to speak at his church. Father Pfleger, who did not return calls for comment, is one of the religious leaders whose “faith testimonials” Mr. Obama has posted on his presidential campaign Web site.

David Axelrod, the chief strategist for the Obama presidential campaign, said that Father Pfleger was “remaking the face” of Chicago’s South Side and that all of Mr. Obama’s earmarks went to worthy programs like his.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/us...ZBiGsVc7J4WasQ

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

this does beg the question as to what abortion and the hatred of gay people ahve to do with Sunday mornings as well ... just to pick a few topics. can churches only be political if they are conservative?

Of course not. I would never want to belong to a church where the Sunday morning sermons are about abortion or homosexuality or race or anything other than what I want to come to church for.

I don't like any pastor that makes extreme political statements, no matter which side of the aisle they are on. Whether it is Wright and his garbage or Robertson (or whoever it was) saying God caused Katrina because of a gay pride parade. Stupid statements are stupid statements, and they cause more harm than good.

[A_Wanderer]

The magnitude of harm that their views inflict is the difference. While Wright and Robertson may be equally reprehensible the influence Robertson wields over his political allies makes his views more harmful.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

Of course not. I would never want to belong to a church where the Sunday morning sermons are about abortion or homosexuality or race or anything other than what I want to come to church for.

I don't like any pastor that makes extreme political statements, no matter which side of the aisle they are on. Whether it is Wright and his garbage or Robertson (or whoever it was) saying God caused Katrina because of a gay pride parade. Stupid statements are stupid statements, and they cause more harm than good.

we agree here.

[WildHoneyAlways]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

One has to wonder if this sort of rhetoric hasn't been commonplace in the Trinity church for many many years.

Quite a few of my students' families belong/belonged to Trinity. I've always been a bit surprised to discover what is said (and isn't said, for that matter) in the churches of the students I teach.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by A_Wanderer

When Obama embraces these religious leaders he is getting votes in the South Side and all he just has to deliver secular political promises. When McCain is getting endorsements from the Christian Right he has to deliver policies and nominees that blur the line between Church and State. I think that the latter is more harmful to a secular liberal democracy.

McCain would choose pro-life Justices, I'm sure. But I'm wondering what other policies McCain has proposed that would be harmful to a secular liberal democracy?

[deep]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

McCain would choose pro-life Justices, I'm sure. But I'm wondering what other policies McCain has proposed that would be harmful to a secular liberal democracy?

I am less concerned about McCain's judicial picks these days

we will have even more Dems in the Senate to sidetrack any Alitos, or Clarence Thomas like picks


I do have many concerns with Obama and big Dem gains the the House and Senate