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Old 03-27-2012, 10:33 AM   #101
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Zimmerman also allegedly told police that Trayvon tried to get his gun
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:33 AM   #102
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Huh, that's interesting. I'm curious to see where everything goes with that information.

Again, regardless of what info comes out, Zimmerman NEVER should have pursued him, and NEVER should have been allowed to shoot him and walk away.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:44 AM   #103
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Zimmerman also allegedly told police that Trayvon tried to get his gun
See this type of struggle would make much more sense but it doesn't seem to coincide with the evidence. He never said anything about a struggle for the gun. How does someone who is pinned down, crying out for help somehow win the upper hand and get the gun?
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:57 AM   #104
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Dan Abrams To GMA: ‘Stand Your Ground’ Was ‘Not Designed To Protect Aggressor Who Loses A Fight’ | Mediaite

On Tuesday, Mediaite founder and ABC legal analyst Dan Abrams appeared on Good Morning America to explain what impact an eye witness account of the altercation between Trayvon Martin and his shooter, George Zimmerman may have on the ongoing investigation into the shooting. Furthermore, does Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law apply in light of this account?

Abrams warns that the witness’ account — that Martin had been beating Zimmerman on the ground — in no way decides the case. But it does provide us with “some context as to why the police possibly could have done what they did,” as well as providing “more information as to why, maybe, the police were so quick to accept Zimmerman’s story.

“The ‘Stand Your Ground’ law was not designed to protect an aggressor who starts losing a fight,” Abrams explained. “That’s not what this law is for. And that would not, I do not think, protect Zimmerman in this case. Meaning, if the facts were that Zimmerman goes after him, they get into an altercation, and let’s say that Trayvon Martin starts winning the fight, Zimmerman pulls out his gun because he’s getting scared, that’s not going to protect Zimmerman. On the other hand, what Zimmerman is claiming is, he approaches him, turns his back, Trayvon Martin attacks him. That would be a different scenario.”

“Stand Your Ground” is essentially “protection for somebody who kills somebody else.” Furthermore, he continued, under the Florida law, “if you reasonably believe — and reasonably becomes the crucial standard — reasonably believe that you are in some sort of imminent danger, then you are allowed to use deadly force, if necessary. That’s why this is so tricky.”

“I’m convinced,” he added, “that if the Florida Stand Your Ground law didn’t exist, Zimmerman already would have been charged.”
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:34 PM   #105
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This story doesn't really seem to add up. So Zimmerman who was ready to play lone ranger some how gave up and nonchalantly retreated? Only to get knocked out with one punch? And then the crying out for help; one it sounded like a much younger voice, and two it didn't sound like someone who was being sat on and being pummeled. Now I would assume with audio forensics this should be fairly simple to "prove". But then after all of this Zimmerman then has the ability to grab his gun and shoot?
So many assumptions. Have you heard Zimmerman scream before? Why would he not be able to scream with someone sitting on top of him? What would have stopped him from getting his gun? I'm not taking either side on this. It's fucked up that someone got shot and killed, but there is some pretty brainless assumptions coming from both sides of the fence
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:45 PM   #106
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Sounds to me like two people who felt threatened and felt the need to "stand their ground."

I am always annoyed when Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up. In general, they don't help.
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:47 PM   #107
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Except for the details about the initial altercation, there's really nothing new in the Orlando Sentinel's account--the Miami Herald cited Sanford police a week ago as saying Zimmerman's story involved Martin returning and jumping Zimmerman after Zimmerman had abandoned pursuit. So it was already a given that that would be the narrative any prosecutors involved would have to cast doubt on, and unfortunately for them we (apparently) have no eyewitnesses to the initial confrontation, only to the last couple minutes before the shooting (and conflicting accounts at that). If they didn't succeed in doing so--and the burden here would be on the prosecution to disprove, not on the defendant to prove--then yes, Zimmerman would almost certainly be let off, because according to his story he'd made an attempt to retreat, thus covering his tail even though he'd done the initial provoking.

That story really, really strains credulity though. Why would a highschool kid who was returning home from a snack run during the halftime of family night watching the NBA game, and who was initially frightened enough (per both Zimmerman's and the girlfriend's accounts) to run away from the strongly-built older man tailing him, respond to that man retreating by going 'OK, well now I'm gonna go back and beat the shit out of him' (without even bothering to hang up with his girlfriend, apparently)? If the claim were instead that Martin, from the very first moment he realized he was being followed, had wheeled around, charged and attacked Zimmerman, that to me would actually seem somewhat more plausible (though I'm guessing 'Stand Your Ground' would've justified Martin in doing that? and what do you do with a situation where both parties had a right to 'stand their ground,' anyway--whoever lives wins?). Or perhaps if Zimmerman had unwittingly retreated to a position where he was blocking Martin's access to his father's fiancee's house, such that Martin could've reasonably perceived him as lying in wait (wouldn't that also be 'stand your ground' from both ends?); that's the only plausible-seeming explanation I can think of for Zimmerman's story.

In any case, as other posters have noted, none of the possible scenarios change the fact that both Martin and Zimmerman would be alive and well today if Zimmerman hadn't chosen to play self-appointed cop, and engage in profiling on top of it.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #108
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Why would a highschool kid who was returning home from a snack run during the halftime of family night watching the NBA game, and who was initially frightened enough (per both Zimmerman's and the girlfriend's accounts) to run away from the strongly-built older man tailing him, respond to that man retreating by going 'OK, well now I'm gonna go back and beat the shit out of him' (without even bothering to hang up with his girlfriend, apparently)? If the claim were instead that Martin, from the very first moment he realized he was being followed, had wheeled around, charged and attacked Zimmerman, that to me would actually seem somewhat more plausible (though I'm guessing 'Stand Your Ground' would've justified Martin in doing that? and what do you do with a situation where both parties had a right to 'stand their ground,' anyway--whoever lives wins?). Or perhaps if Zimmerman had unwittingly retreated to a position where he was blocking Martin's access to his father's financee's house, such that Martin could've reasonably perceived him as lying in wait (wouldn't that also be 'stand your ground' from both ends?); that's the only plausible-seeming explanation I can think of for Zimmerman's story.
But creating ideal scenarios in your head is completely fruitless. What if he initially only saw Zimmerman in the dark and was unable to get a good read on him? What if, after seeing that Zimmerman was really just a portly middle aged man, he wasn't afraid any more? What if he was initially scared, but talked himself into standing up for himself after a few minutes. All of these are completely plausible. It's pointless to say "I think it happened this way and it's the only explanation"
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:04 PM   #109
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Huh, that's interesting. I'm curious to see where everything goes with that information.

Again, regardless of what info comes out, Zimmerman NEVER should have pursued him, and NEVER should have been allowed to shoot him and walk away.

Exactly.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #110
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Sounds to me like two people who felt threatened and felt the need to "stand their ground."

I am always annoyed when Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson show up. In general, they don't help.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #111
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So many assumptions. Have you heard Zimmerman scream before? Why would he not be able to scream with someone sitting on top of him? What would have stopped him from getting his gun? I'm not taking either side on this. It's fucked up that someone got shot and killed, but there is some pretty brainless assumptions coming from both sides of the fence
Well a couple of things:

I've studied voice a little and there are certain characteristics in tone and timbre that you find in age, regardless of how deep or high a person's voice is. Many others have heard this as well. It's also doesn't sound consistent with his size, but that's pretty difficult to determine.

If one's head is being slammed up and down on concrete while screaming there would be noticable change in sound. Just make a sound and shake your head up and down. The screams I heard on the tapes all sound pretty consistent. And someone sitting on your chest would hinder and effect the sound you could create as well.

Now as far as the gun, I'm just placing all the accounts into an order. He turns around to be greeted by a punch that knocked him to the ground, then immediately starts to get his head slammed into the concrete. That's pretty disorientating, and he's pretty helpless since Martin is on top him. So he's helplessly screaming yet he has the capability to recover and out man the gun from Martin? Sure its plausible, but seems far fetched. It sounds like he's playing both sides. But what does the report say about Martin's blood on him, where was Martin when he was actually shot?

So I would say more educated guesses rather than "brainless assumptions".
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:13 PM   #112
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But creating ideal scenarios in your head is completely fruitless.
Plausible, not ideal.

How else would you go about explaining the events of such an event?

This is exactly how it's done in the courtroom, you piece together the evidence you have.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:16 PM   #113
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Well a couple of things:

I've studied voice a little and there are certain characteristics in tone and timbre that you find in age, regardless of how deep or high a person's voice is. Many others have heard this as well. It's also doesn't sound consistent with his size, but that's pretty difficult to determine.

If one's head is being slammed up and down on concrete while screaming there would be noticable change in sound. Just make a sound and shake your head up and down. The screams I heard on the tapes all sound pretty consistent. And someone sitting on your chest would hinder and effect the sound you could create as well.
You've studied voice a little? Like, you're an expert or you've been on google?
You're right about it being difficult to determine, which is why you shouldn't make accusations about who it was screaming. All the other points about shaking your head and banging it on the ground are completely useless. You're listening to the sound of someone screaming many yards away over a telephone. You've got no way to determine any of these things and it's all completely worthless. It's not like the guy was making a constant "aaaaaaaaaaah" sound so you could hear the changes in pitch. It was random screaming.
I'll play the guessing game for a second anyway. What makes more sense? A man standing, pointing a gun at someone for 30 seconds while they scream, then shooting them in the stomach or someone getting beat on and screaming for 30 seconds until they pull their gun out and shoot?
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:17 PM   #114
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Plausible, not ideal.

How else would you go about explaining the events of such an event?

This is exactly how it's done in the courtroom, you piece together the evidence you have.
It's called conjecture and it absolutely does not hold up in a courtroom
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:18 PM   #115
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But creating ideal scenarios in your head is completely fruitless. What if he initially only saw Zimmerman in the dark and was unable to get a good read on him? What if, after seeing that Zimmerman was really just a portly middle aged man, he wasn't afraid any more? What if he was initially scared, but talked himself into standing up for himself after a few minutes. All of these are completely plausible. It's pointless to say "I think it happened this way and it's the only explanation"
Eh? I was describing scenarios under which the broad outlines of Zimmerman's story might make sense to me, not saying "what I think happened." Chasing down a pursuer who's retreated wouldn't be "standing your ground" anyway, according to either the statute or to common sense; it would be provocative aggression, so you'd need to account for the shift to that.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:21 PM   #116
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Eh? I was describing scenarios under which the broad outlines of Zimmerman's story might make sense to me, not saying "what I think happened." Chasing down a pursuer who's retreated wouldn't be "standing your ground" anyway, according to either the statute or to common sense; it would be provocative aggression, so you'd need to account for the shift to that.
But to make assumptions like 'well, he ran at first, so he wouldn't have changed his mind and decided to confront Zimmerman' or 'Maybe Zimmerman was blocking his way back to his Mom's house and looked like he was lying in wait' have no basis in anything. Just because the guy initially ran doesn't mean that he couldn't have turned back around.
You guys are making all kinds of assumptions about this kid's actions based on what is allegedly a 5 year old photo of him. For all we know, he was an asshole. (just as Zimmerman could very well be an asshole)
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:26 PM   #117
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It's called conjecture and it absolutely does not hold up in a courtroom
What are you talking about?

So in courtrooms do they only allow for videotaped footage of murders to be submitted and everyone else is set free?
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:29 PM   #118
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What are you talking about?

So in courtrooms do they only allow for videotaped footage of murders to be submitted and everyone else is set free?
Go ahead and read my other posts

You really think "well, maybe he was blocking the way back to his Mom's house' would stand up in court?? C'mon man. And I'm not picking on Yolland (Yolland is awesome), it was just the most recent
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:32 PM   #119
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You've studied voice a little? Like, you're an expert or you've been on google?
Minored in school, and took an elective that was forensic audio.


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I'll play the guessing game for a second anyway. What makes more sense? A man standing, pointing a gun at someone for 30 seconds while they scream, then shooting them in the stomach or someone getting beat on and screaming for 30 seconds until they pull their gun out and shoot?
No one is arguing the first scenario.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:34 PM   #120
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No one is arguing the first scenario.
So what would the screaming have been about?
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