Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

I'm just implying that he probably wouldn't have followed me.

I don't know, man. There's no way for either of us to know, but I'd suspect that if you were walking around with your hood up and were around the right age, he might.

So are we promoting that everyone with a gun should start following "suspicious" people?

I would never promote carrying around a gun in that way, but following a suspicious person? Maybe

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Because an autopsy was performed on the deceased whom the police were unable to assess before his death. They had the benefit of speaking with Zimmerman directly after the incident to determine whether he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Seems pretty standard to me. No need to make everything suspicious

But I'm speaking about perception. It's not standard procedure to test victims of gun related fatalities for drugs. Perception is reality and the dead was tested, the shooter wasn't(though later came out that he may have been under the influence) so perception is that the cops just took Zimmerman's story for fact and didn't proceed with any cautionary suspicion that his story could have been fabricated in anyway.

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You don't defend yourself by initiating physical contact. This is a joke. There's no proof Zimmerman was brandishing his gun.

I'll bite, since you've mentioned it several times. What exactly is your "training"?

No, we don't know if he brandished his gun or not, this part of the story is completely unknown to us. My scenario was only under the assumption that Martin knew of the gun and felt threatened.

I can outrun a knife on most days. But my odds of outrunning bullets are much less, so you want to draw the person with the gun in, OR go on the offense and bring your body closer in so that you can try and maintain control of the gun or inhibit their control of the gun.

25 years, two forms of martial arts.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

But I'm speaking about perception. It's not standard procedure to test victims of gun related fatalities for drugs. Perception is reality and the dead was tested, the shooter wasn't(though later came out that he may have been under the influence) so perception is that the cops just took Zimmerman's story for fact and didn't proceed with any cautionary suspicion that his story could have been fabricated in anyway.

But it is standard procedure if the 911 caller repeatedly says the deceased was "on something". Had they, after speaking with Zimmerman for hours, suspected that he was intoxicated, I'm sure they would have tested him too. In fact, and maybe anitram could set me straight, I would think it might be a violation of rights to test someone for drugs or alcohol without reasonable suspicion.

25 years, two forms of martial arts.

What kind of martial arts? (I'm genuinely interested)

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I don't know, man. There's no way for either of us to know, but I'd suspect that if you were walking around with your hood up and were around the right age, he might.

I have a friend the same age, same stature, and pretty much the same upbringing. I've never been followed in my life outside of childhood games, but he still to this day has stories of being followed around in a store or certain neighborhoods. But you're right we really don't know about that particular night, maybe we all look the same in a hoodie, but if there's light enough to tell age than there's enough to tell skin color.

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I would never promote carrying around a gun in that way, but following a suspicious person? Maybe

I don't know, I say you call in and stay put. It makes absolutely no sense to me to follow since you don't know what they are carrying or capable of...

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

I don't know, I say you call in and stay put. It makes absolutely no sense to me to follow since you don't know what they are carrying or capable of...

This is reasonable too. I'm just saying it's not all that outlandish to follow them. A little dumb though, you're right

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

What kind of martial arts? (I'm genuinely interested)

Tae Kwon Do is where the majority of my training lies, and then also Kenpo Karate.

Tae Kwon Do I started when I was 8 and at one time held the title of youngest blackbelt in Texas, that lasted for about a full 5 months

To this day, I can say I've only really had to use it once against a belligerent man while I was at a bachelor party. I had to put him in a hold and then hand him to the bouncer.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Tae Kwon Do is where the majority of my training lies, and then also Kenpo Karate.

Tae Kwon Do I started when I was 8 and at one time held the title of youngest blackbelt in Texas, that lasted for about a full 5 months

To this day, I can say I've only really had to use it once against a belligerent man while I was at a bachelor party. I had to put him in a hold and then hand him to the bouncer.

That's pretty cool, man. I was working with a guy the other week who's fairly high up in the Canadian Tae Kwon Do rankings. He was showing me all sorts of impressive spinning kicks during a bit of down time. Flashy. I wish my parents got me into something like that as a kid. Or Piano hahaha instead, I'm a half decent baseball player. Not as exciting

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by BVS

Did you hear this from Fox News? There has been no mention from the DOJ about a civil right case yet. The right just wants to stir up something.

Holder is promising an investigation for a potential civil rights case and has set up a tip line for more information on Zimmerman.

This waste of time was not a Fox News creation.

I say "waste of time" as there are specific, narrow categories under which a federal civil rights case can made. None of which apply to Zimmerman.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by nbcrusader

Holder is promising an investigation for a potential civil rights case and has set up a tip line for more information on Zimmerman.

This waste of time was not a Fox News creation.

I say "waste of time" as there are specific, narrow categories under which a federal civil rights case can made. None of which apply to Zimmerman.

Help me out here, I haven't seen Holder say anything specifically about a civil rights charge, just that they will continue the investigation they opened back when this first occurred.

I heard speculation about a civil rights charge as early as Friday from some on the right. So would a civil rights charge be the only way the DOJ can go, is that why there's this speculation?

I just haven't seen anything about a charge like Tim has suggested

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

That's pretty cool, man. I was working with a guy the other week who's fairly high up in the Canadian Tae Kwon Do rankings. He was showing me all sorts of impressive spinning kicks during a bit of down time. Flashy. I wish my parents got me into something like that as a kid. Or Piano hahaha instead, I'm a half decent baseball player. Not as exciting

Thanks, I'm grateful my parents signed me up so young, it's a great way to teach discipline.

The one thing I have lost is my flexibility, I used to be able to do split kicks, I've found that once you lose it, it's harder to get back once your older.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by BVS

It was raining, hoodies are great for that, even a self appointed watchman could assess that. There was nothing suspicious going on, period.

Based on TM texts about violence, guns, drugs...is it possible he was trying to at least look, well, like a "gangsta"?

We must be honest here - in most suburban neighborhoods an older teenager walking around in the rain at night, in between houses, wearing a hoodie - certainly seems out of place, if not suspicious.

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by BVS

Help me out here, I haven't seen Holder say anything specifically about a civil rights charge, just that they will continue the investigation they opened back when this first occurred.

I heard speculation about a civil rights charge as early as Friday from some on the right. So would a civil rights charge be the only way the DOJ can go, is that why there's this speculation?

I just haven't seen anything about a charge like Tim has suggested

Tim's language may have been imprecise.

The DOJ started a civil rights investigation into this case over a year ago. As was posted earlier, the FBI concluded that there was NO racial motivation to this case. In light of the acquittal, the NAACP made the unsurprising move of calling on the DOJ to reopen the civil rights violation investigation.

Holder has agreed to re-open the case and set up a government email tipline for info on Zimmerman.

No actual charges have been filed. The legal basis for such a case is essentially non-existent, so if charges are filed, it would be for political theater purposes only.

[iron yuppie]

Let me trace a hypothetical situation here. Person A is looking to cause a fight for whatever reason. Person A begins to hassle Person B, eventually throwing a punch at Person B. The punch misses. B swings back and connects, breaking A's nose. A pulls out a gun and shoots B in the head. A then claims self-defense, citing the broken nose and a fear of being killed. As far as I can tell, based on the verdict of the Zimmerman case, A has broken no laws. Does this not sound insane?

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by anitram

it's bizarre to me that so much of the discussion is based on the assumption that what GZ says happened that night actually happened that way.

Completely, completely agree.

[AEON]

I am curious - is there one African American on any of these "expert panels" that actually agrees with the verdict? Every time I see this story on the major cable news networks - and they ask an opinion from an African American -he/she ALWAYS sides with the prosecution. How is this numerically possible without there being a huge bias?

Of course - I may have missed a few guests, so my sample size may have skewed my observation.

The white guests seem about 50/50 on the outcome.

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Let me trace a hypothetical situation here. Person A is looking to cause a fight for whatever reason. Person A begins to hassle Person B, eventually throwing a punch at Person B. The punch misses. B swings back and connects, breaking A's nose. A pulls out a gun and shoots B in the head. A then claims self-defense, citing the broken nose and a fear of being killed. As far as I can tell, based on the verdict of the Zimmerman case, A has broken no laws. Does this not sound insane?

Anyone is entitled to raise a self-defense claim - it is a matter of proof (the burden resting squarely on the person raising the defense).

In your hypothetical, the person intentionally initiating the aggression (Person A) would fail in raising the self defense argument.

There is a false equivalency between the hypothetical and the Martin/Zimmerman matter.

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

There's also this.

New Trayvon lie: Media, LAPD falsely report “rowdy” protests - Salon.com

And this....

Seems like Salon is taking liberty with one false media report (and we know how well the media does their fact checks).

Until the next issue grabs our attention, the spin will continue...

[The_Pac_Mule]

Why give someone that killed someone the benefit of believing everything they say? How does anyone know Trayvon didn't ask him to leave him alone and then this idiot (everybody agrees) pull out his gun and then the fight happened?? And for goodness sakes Zimmerman was no where beaten that badly at all.

Because aren't you innocent until proven guilty? And there wasn't anything to discredit was George said happened. If GZ actually wanted to kill Trayvon it seems to me like he could have easily done it right off. And if someone is being pummeled like GZ was, most people aren't going to be able to stay calm and rational. At the point where Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating the snot out of him, if it were me I would be most afraid of loosing consciousness, or close enough to it that Trayvon could take my gun away and possibly use it to kill me and take off. An unlikely scenario for you or me to imagine, but very easy to imagine if you just got jumped and were being beat down like that.

Tae Kwon Do is where the majority of my training lies, and then also Kenpo Karate.

Tae Kwon Do I started when I was 8 and at one time held the title of youngest blackbelt in Texas, that lasted for about a full 5 months

Thats some good stuff I always wanted to learn Krav Maga but I can't find someone in Vermont that teaches it.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by nbcrusader

In your hypothetical, the person intentionally initiating the aggression (Person A) would fail in raising the self defense argument.

As very well might have happened with Zimmerman. The only reasons he can claim otherwise is that he had a wound and the other party was dead.

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

As very well might have happened with Zimmerman. The only reasons he can claim otherwise is that he had a wound and the other party was dead.

You can come to quite a number of different results in a case when you invent facts.