Trayvon Martin's murderer George Zimmerman is still a free man

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Gotta go with deep on this one:



To me, it really is that simple--race and all the other drama aside--it really should have been that simple.

But what laws did he break? You can't be sent to jail for being an asshole

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Hey! I used to live there!

I'm very sorry. Crime Hills/OBT/Orange Bowl is probably the scariest place in Orlando.

Although over the last few years they've done a great job at cleaning it up a bit.

I guess to put us back on topic, yes, Sanford, FL is a shithole and an incredibly racist town.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

But what laws did he break? You can't be sent to jail for being an asshole

This is exactly the problem, Jive: he didn't break any laws. That is the part that should give us pause about the US legal system as it stands. If we take the letter of the law out of the equation for a moment and look at the case from an ethical standpoint, are you willing to say that Zimmerman is justified in what he did on that night? I don't think the sense of frustration and outrage is coming from the verdict's propriety or impropriety under the law, but rather at what the law protects and facilitates: that being any asshole with a gun thinking that they have a mission to cleanse their neighborhood of "dangerous" elements.

I also wanted to call some attention to this quote from Zimmerman's brother: “There are factions, there are groups, there are people that would want to take the law into their own hands as they perceive it or be vigilantes in some sense. They will always present a threat to George and to his family.”

Oh, the irony.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

This is exactly the problem, Jive: he didn't break any laws. That is the part that should give us pause about the US legal system as it stands. If we take the letter of the law out of the equation for a moment and look at the case from an ethical standpoint, are you willing to say that Zimmerman is justified in what he did on that night? I don't think the sense of frustration and outrage is coming from the verdict's propriety or impropriety under the law, but rather at what the law protects and facilitates: that being any asshole with a gun thinking that they have a mission to cleanse their neighborhood of "dangerous" elements.

Well I think this it totally reasonable. But when I read things on facebook etc that say "Oh, so I guess it's legal to kill black people in Florida now?" (I read that exact thing) it does nothing to further the discussion. It's a twisted bastardization of what happened. The laws, as they are now, say Zimmerman probably should have been found not guilty. There's no law against carrying a gun around (which is probably fucked up), there's no law against leaving your house to follow someone you think is suspicious (a poor judgement?...maybe... but not illegal). There are questions as to what happened after that, but we can only go by what was presented. If I leave my house to follow someone that looks suspicious and get the shit kicked out of me, is it my fault? Legally, no (and if we're being consistent with victim blaming, also no). Did he fear for his life? I don't know. Nobody does but Zimmerman. The only issue to discuss really is the gun laws

[BonosSaint]

JT

It’s bad enough how often journalists attribute their scoops to unnamed “sources,” but as cable networks fill time tonight waiting for a verdict in the George Zimmerman trial, Zimmerman’s neighbor Frank Taaffe let slip that his inside sources have told him the jury is deadlocked at the moment, with five of the six jurors moving to acquit.

Too soon: George Zimmerman neighbor Frank Taaffe kicks off 5-1 acquittal buzz | Twitchy

While I haven't watched much of this trial, I did watch it last night when I knew they were close to a verdict and I heard the neighbor say the above before the verdict and it raised my eyebrows a little. I heard him with my own lying ears. Mrs.S gave the option of guy just making it up or having some knowledge he shouldn't have had. Seems she gave both sides. (Or maybe it was something he overheard speculated and passed along).

I will retract and apologize. Appears I was wrong on your repeated use of hysterical (another person, another place). You use "hyperbole", "ridiculous", "unbalanced", "unreasonable" and "kneejerk" (Belittling and insulting a common denominator. Not my modus operandi even at my most pompously rational or flagrantly flighty or pissed) but I believe I slandered you (libeled you? Is an internet forum a published vehicle) with "hysterical". My apologies.

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

But what laws did he break? You can't be sent to jail for being an asshole

there is a verdict and one side seems to be satisfied with the verdict
and one side seems to believe there was a miscarriage of justice

what laws did he break?
with this verdict one can say none

and the same can be said of O J Simpson with the killings of Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson, O J broke no laws he is innocent

the same can be said of Officer Laurence Powell and Sergeant Stacey Koon in the near death beating they gave to Rodney King, they broke no laws, based on the verdict

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

there is a verdict and one side seems to be satisfied with the verdict
and one side seems to believe there was a miscarriage of justice

what laws did he break?
with this verdict one can say none

and the same can be said of O J Simpson and the killings of Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson, O J broke no laws he is innocent

the same can be said of Officer Laurence Powell and Sergeant Stacey Koon in the near death beating they gave to Rodney King, they broke no laws, based on the verdict

You know none of the are analogous. Zimmerman freely admits he shot and killed Martin. We "know" the event as it unfolded.

The King thing is a little different. We've got video of several cops beating the shit out of a man lying on the ground.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BonosSaint

You use "hyperbole", "ridiculous", "unbalanced", "unreasonable" and "kneejerk"

Guilty!!

But I rarely don't back those up with anything

but I believe I slandered you (libeled you? Is an internet forum a published vehicle) with "hysterical". My apologies.

No need to apologize, even if it was a little tongue in cheek

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

You know none of the are analogous. Zimmerman freely admits he shot and killed Martin

they are, the police admit they beat King, they just got the right jury and defense team for an acquittal of going beyond the legal limit

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by deep

they are, the police admit they beat King, they just got the right jury and defense team for an acquittal of going beyond the legal limit

And there's a video of them apparently going beyond the legal limit. To be honest, I was pretty young at the time, so I'm not all that knowledgeable about the case

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BonosSaint

JT



Too soon: George Zimmerman neighbor Frank Taaffe kicks off 5-1 acquittal buzz | Twitchy

Even bringing that up as if it's relevant in any way is silly. It's like the 9/11 conspiracists. "I'm not saying it's true, but the building did appear to be detonated from the inside"

[KhanadaRhodes]

tim, i live in memphis, a city with very high crime and an over 50% african american population. does that mean i'm qualified to give an opinion?

at no point do i think martin posed a threat to zimmerman. i think he should have been found guilty of something at least. i loved living in florida, but what is it about that state? sheesh.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I usually like when someone gets all fired up in debates (Ashleeeeeyyyyyy)

When I feel the need, I can deliver.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

tim, i live in memphis, a city with very high crime and an over 50% african american population. does that mean i'm qualified to give an opinion?

at no point do i think martin posed a threat to zimmerman. i think he should have been found guilty of something at least. i loved living in florida, but what is it about that state? sheesh.

We're the misunderstood drama state confused of whether or not we are a product of the North or South.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Well I think this it totally reasonable. But when I read things on facebook etc that say "Oh, so I guess it's legal to kill black people in Florida now?" (I read that exact thing) it does nothing to further the discussion. It's a twisted bastardization of what happened. The laws, as they are now, say Zimmerman probably should have been found not guilty. There's no law against carrying a gun around (which is probably fucked up), there's no law against leaving your house to follow someone you think is suspicious (a poor judgement?...maybe... but not illegal). There are questions as to what happened after that, but we can only go by what was presented. If I leave my house to follow someone that looks suspicious and get the shit kicked out of me, is it my fault? Legally, no (and if we're being consistent with victim blaming, also no). Did he fear for his life? I don't know. Nobody does but Zimmerman. The only issue to discuss really is the gun laws

This times 10 million.

The state did a horrific job not in that they did a bad job presenting their case... they had no case to begin with. It never should have been brought to trial as a murder case, and only was brought as a murder case after public pressure. The Sanford police had it pegged the entire time. There was zero evidence to discount Zimmerman's account. There was evidence to back it. His story never changed. It was remarkably consistent from start to finish.

In the end, its still about the guns. If he had no gun, we're not having this conversation.

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

at no point do i think martin posed a threat to zimmerman. i think he should have been found guilty of something at least.

Are we forgetting the bloody nose, cuts to the back of the head, and a description of Martin on top of Zimmerman delivering the blows? I think at that point Martin posed a threat.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by nbcrusader

Are we forgetting the bloody nose, cuts to the back of the head, and a description of Martin on top of Zimmerman delivering the blows? I think at that point Martin posed a threat.

Well then it depends what you're interpreting a threat to be.

[LemonMelon]

The precedent this case sets is unfortunate. The laws in Florida are ass-backwards and this would have been a great impetus to change them, but I'm not surprised by the verdict at all. The prosecution never had the evidence to hold up a second degree murder charge. Manslaughter, maybe. But the law as it stands was in Zimmerman's favor.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

tim, i live in memphis, a city with very high crime and an over 50% african american population. does that mean i'm qualified to give an opinion?

at no point do i think martin posed a threat to zimmerman. i think he should have been found guilty of something at least. i loved living in florida, but what is it about that state? sheesh.

Originally Posted by nbcrusader

Are we forgetting the bloody nose, cuts to the back of the head, and a description of Martin on top of Zimmerman delivering the blows? I think at that point Martin posed a threat.

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Well then it depends what you're interpreting a threat to be.

Here's the thing though; at what point do you decide you're either in danger of death or grievous bodily harm? If someone is on top of me, punching and hitting my head against the ground, do I wait until I nearly lose consciousness? If someone says "you're going to die tonight" in the process, does that expedite the decision making? It doesn't take much trauma to the back of the head for permanent injury. There was a guy in high school who got sucker punched while watching a fight, fell back and hit his head on the curb. He was never the same afterward. Would you risk that? I'm not saying he made the right decision. I'm saying there's a lot to think about in a short time.
Did Zimmerman pose a physical threat to Martin before the altercation? Something had to happen for the fight to start in the first place

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

The prosecution never had the evidence to hold up a second degree murder charge. Manslaughter, maybe.

Maybe I've been reading things wrong, but isn't this point moot now? Wasn't the lesser charge of manslaughter always an option for the jury?