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Old 03-21-2012, 09:40 PM   #21
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That's clearly not what I'm saying.
I figured it wasn't but I was confused as to what you were trying to say...
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:54 PM   #22
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From what I've read, Trayvon didn't live there all the time -- he was visiting his father who lived there. Still, given it was where his father lived, he was most likely there fairly often. And even if it was the first time he's ever been there, just walking through a neighbourhood shouldn't be automatically suspicious.

It seems Zimmerman was a wannabe cop, who didn't make the cut. Click here to link to an article on that.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:08 PM   #23
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From what I've read, Trayvon didn't live there all the time -- he was visiting his father who lived there. Still, given it was where his father lived, he was most likely there fairly often. And even if it was the first time he's ever been there, just walking through a neighbourhood shouldn't be automatically suspicious.
That's right, I remember hearing that, too, good point.

That article says he's been in that area for 10 years, so yeah, I would think, especially given how, um, dedicated, we'll say, the article indicates he was to observing things that went on in that community over the years, he would've at least seen Treyvon show up a few times here and there as at least an occasional resident of the area.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:30 PM   #24
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I figured it wasn't but I was confused as to what you were trying to say...
I think it would be pretty ignorant for us to ignore the fact that when people hear about a racially motivated killing of a black man in the news, people think "old white guy." I was simply pointing out that it was not the case, not to make any point other than to inform.

It would be idiotic to say any race does not have racist members, which was never my intention.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:42 PM   #25
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I gotcha...
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:53 AM   #26
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And like you said, someone comes up being all accusing towards me, I'm probably not going to respond in the nicest tone. Or I'll be scared. Or something. The kid was completely unarmed. He was wearing a hoodie, which probably made the guy think he was a "thug". Never mind the fact that many, many people wear hoodies all the time, of course, and while it is Florida, it was also February, so it was probably cool/cold (for Floridians) at that time, and a hoodie would be a logical thing to wear in that weather.
exactly. like i said, at that point, it's fight or flight, and neither one would have a good outcome i'd imagine. flight would've been the one where he might not have been shot, but there's still no guarantee he wouldn't have been shot as he ran away anyway or something.

and my god, even i wear hoodies when it rains. i'm not really an umbrella person. by the time i've got the freaking thing open, i'm already at my destination. i also have a great disdain for them thanks to rude people who use them. but anyway yeah, everyone wears hoodies now. my dad wears one, and he'll be 63 this year. i definitely agree with you he probably thought the guy was a thug, but come on.

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That article says he's been in that area for 10 years, so yeah, I would think, especially given how, um, dedicated, we'll say, the article indicates he was to observing things that went on in that community over the years, he would've at least seen Treyvon show up a few times here and there as at least an occasional resident of the area.
and yeah, if he's so diligent you'd think he'd also be involved in some sort of welcoming committee or at least keep tabs on comings/goings in the neighbourhood. hey look, 1734's moving out, so they won't be around anymore so i don't need to think anything's up there. looks like 1813 is a single parent, so the kid will only be there on some weekends and holidays. we only know part of the story of zimmerman, but it's starting to become clearer as to why he acted the way he did, or at least why he didn't get to become a cop as indra pointed out.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:57 AM   #27
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This article contains the 911 tapes--Zimmerman's call (first one) plus calls from six clearly terrified residents reporting screams and gunshots. The purported racial slur (on Zimmerman's call) is at about 2:20; that one's controversial, some audio experts hear "fucking punks" not "fucking coons" :

Trayvon Martin Case: 911 Audio Released Of Teen Shot By Neighborhood Watch Captain (AUDIO)

All the calls are disturbing, particularly the third one--that caller must've had her windows open, and in the background you can hear, quite unmistakably, the sound of a young man screaming in terror followed by a gunshot and then silence.

The police chief needs to be removed from his job immediately; not only did the department fail completely to follow up on the evidence that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, but also his idea of "damage control" is public statements like this:
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“We are taking a beating over this. This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, February 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

“If the roles were reversed, our investigation would be exactly the same. Our investigation is color blind and based on the facts and circumstances, not color. I know I can say that until I am blue in the face, but as a white man in a uniform, I know it doesn’t mean anything to anybody.”
The Atlantic's legal analyst has a good article about the likely considerations facing the grand jury when they convene next month: Trayvon Martin's Killer Was Looking for Trouble and Found It - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:31 AM   #28
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Fuck. They shouldn't release that shit. That's chilling.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:30 AM   #29
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Those 911 calls are chilling. Particularly the one where you can hear Trayvon screaming for help for at least a full minute (and that's only after the 911 call had been answered). Makes it really, really hard for me to believe Zimmerman was "defending himself" if the quite obviously terrified victim is screaming for help for that long.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:34 AM   #30
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The first one where he calls 911 makes it pretty obvious it wasn't in self-defence.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:02 AM   #31
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Last night on Anderson Cooper they had a CNN audio guy try to enhance the audio. To me it sounded like coons but I couldn't say with 100 % certainty. if he used even one racial slur he could be charged federally with a hate crime- but I don't see how they'll ever be able to say he did, with certainty. Don't know how much certainty they'd need.

I think this Zimmerman guy is probably a frustrated wannabe cop, wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he tried to be a cop at some point. Why is a neighborhood watch person even carrying a gun? The 911 dispatcher told him not to follow Trayvon, but he did anyway. Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend at the time and the phone records indicate that, but the police didn't even interview her.

This is so depressing, and I can only imagine his trumped up explanation for how and why he felt threatened by Trayvon.

Last night the police chief got a no confidence vote.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:06 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I think it would be pretty ignorant for us to ignore the fact that when people hear about a racially motivated killing of a black man in the news, people think "old white guy." I was simply pointing out that it was not the case, not to make any point other than to inform.
It has been bothering my a bit that he keeps being referred to as a white man in articles. Simply because that seems not to be the case.



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I think this Zimmerman guy is probably a frustrated wannabe cop, wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he tried to be a cop at some point.
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Originally Posted by indra View Post
From what I've read, Trayvon didn't live there all the time -- he was visiting his father who lived there. Still, given it was where his father lived, he was most likely there fairly often. And even if it was the first time he's ever been there, just walking through a neighbourhood shouldn't be automatically suspicious.

It seems Zimmerman was a wannabe cop, who didn't make the cut. Click here to link to an article on that.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:38 AM   #33
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Another reason why Florida is a cesspool of a state.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:08 PM   #34
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Those 911 calls are chilling. Particularly the one where you can hear Trayvon screaming for help for at least a full minute (and that's only after the 911 call had been answered). Makes it really, really hard for me to believe Zimmerman was "defending himself" if the quite obviously terrified victim is screaming for help for that long.
Well this is another dispute between Trayvon's parents and the police--his parents say the voice is his (ABC reported that his mother ran screaming from the room when she heard that particular call on tape ); the police say it's Zimmerman crying for help (as he claimed he did). One of the neighbors who called 911 told the media she's sure it was a boy she was hearing (though she may have undermined herself a bit by continuing with the not-particularly-logical rationalization that the screams shouldn't have stopped suddenly if they were coming from the shooter). Not knowing either man, I can't say for certain, but I work with young adults for a living and that sure does sound to me like a late adolescent's voice. And yeah, you don't need any expertise at all to hear that he's hysterically afraid.



I'm not sure whether George Zimmerman has a consistent racial self-identification; many people don't, and there's also widespread ambiguity as to whether "Hispanic" is more an ethnicity or more a race. I think the bottom line is simply that he isn't black, and the stereotype of black men as dangerous thugs pervades all of American society and affects the thinking and reactions of everyone, including African-Americans themselves.

There are 21 states with "Stand Your Ground" laws; it's not just Florida.

The statute here (bracketed parts mine):
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776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 [self-defense against a forcible felony, no duty to retreat], s. 776.013 [self-defense inside one's home], or s. 776.031 [protecting others from forcible felony] is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
On the other hand,
Quote:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter [776] is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Media reports have been highly contradictory as to what exactly the height and weight difference between Martin and Zimmerman was, but in the photos at least, Zimmerman sure looks much heavier and more powerfully built, enough so that it's tough to imagine him "reasonably" perceiving an "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" from an unarmed Trayvon Martin.

In principle, I understand the reason for the exception at 776.041(2)(a). Say if you, by your own admission, initiate a confrontation by harassing someone, but to your shock and terror he responds extremely disproportionately by tackling you, bashing your head against the ground and trying to choke you, stuff like that. I understand specifying a right to self-defense, up to and including deadly force, in such a situation. However, just as a commonsense matter, if I'm in the position of absolving you of responsibility for that, it seems like first I'd better make damn sure as to A) whether the force used against you was really such as to make you reasonably fear for your life, and B) what exactly it was you did to your assailant first, because perhaps he too had reasonable cause to perceive grave danger, and after all you were the initiator. But clearly this law puts the burden on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant wasn't acting in self-defense, and conveniently for George Zimmerman there are no direct eyewitnesses.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:18 PM   #35
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The Sanford police chief has stepped down today, "temporarily"
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:57 PM   #36
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It has been bothering my a bit that he keeps being referred to as a white man in articles. Simply because that seems not to be the case.
To clarify, it was confirmed by Zimmerman's father that they are, indeed, a Hispanic family.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:02 PM   #37
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that is bullshit, he may have said it

but it is totally 100% crap
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:09 PM   #38
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Oh, okay.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:23 PM   #39
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It's hard to say 100% if this was based on race.

What I can say with 99.9% certainty is that Zimmerman was an idiot. He was an idiot that seemed to have a complex. He's an idiot that shouldn't have had a gun, and that the Florida law is completely absurd. I hope this incident opens Florida's eyes.

But would this have happened if the kid packing Skittles was hispanic? Would Zimmerman have been as paniced?

Can't say with certainty, my guess probably not.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:45 PM   #40
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To be fair, there were a couple burglaries committed recently in that neighborhood by black men.

That's where my compassion for Zimmerman ends.
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