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Old 04-02-2012, 11:13 AM   #221
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For whatever that's worth, I don't know..If it ever came to trial that might come onto play. Since he hasn't been arrested I don't think that's going to happen.

Trayvon Martin case: Screams on 911 tape aren’t George Zimmerman’s: experts - NY Daily News
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:48 PM   #222
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The cop definitely checked the back of his head. I wonder if he was looking at a cut or bruise or looking for a cut or bruise
FWIW, ABC now has an "enhanced" version of the clip up, on which there do indeed appear to be a couple cuts or gashes on the back of his head.

George Zimmerman: Enhanced Video Shows Injury on Trayvon Martin Shooter's Head | Video - ABC News



The New York Times had a very good overview of the story to date yesterday. Not the legal aspects, just a good summary of the known and alleged details of what happened. Nothing new particularly, although this quote from Zimmerman's neighbor (and occasional fellow volunteer watchman) Frank Taaffe, who's defended Zimmerman numerous times in the press, caught my eye:
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Adding to the uncertainty and flux was the sense among some residents that this secured community was no longer so secure. There had been burglaries; at least seven in 2011, according to police reports. Strangers had started showing up, said Frank Taaffe, 55, a marketing specialist, originally from the Bronx, who works out of his home in the Retreat. He made it clear that he was not talking about just any strangers.

“There were Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down,” Mr. Taaffe said.
Nice.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:57 PM   #223
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I saw the enhanced video and you can definitely see lots of swelling and what looks like welt type marks on the top of his head
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:19 PM   #224
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Juan Williams: The Trayvon Martin Tragedies - WSJ.com

Most conservative columns I've read have not dwelled on the specfics of the case (since we know so little) but rather the media's embarrassing showing and some "uncomfortable" crime statistics. Glad to see others picking up on that.

Quote:
The Trayvon Martin Tragedies
Juan Williams

The shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Florida has sparked national outrage, with civil rights leaders from San Francisco to Baltimore leading protests calling for a new investigation and the arrest of the shooter.

But what about all the other young black murder victims? Nationally, nearly half of all murder victims are black. And the overwhelming majority of those black people are killed by other black people. Where is the march for them?Where is the march against the drug dealers who prey on young black people? Where is the march against bad schools, with their 50% dropout rate for black teenaged boys? Those failed schools are certainly guilty of creating the shameful 40% unemployment rate for black teens.

How about marching against the cable television shows constantly offering minstrel-show images of black youth as rappers and comedians who don't value education, dismiss the importance of marriage, and celebrate killing people, drug money and jailhouse fashion—the pants falling down because the jail guard has taken away the belt, the shoes untied because the warden removed the shoe laces, and accessories such as the drug dealer's pit bull.

Supposedly all of this is just entertainment and intended to co-opt the stereotypes. But it only ends up perpetuating stereotypes in white minds and, worse, having young black people internalize it as an authentic image of a proud black person.

There is no fashion, no thug attitude that should be an invitation to murder. But these are the real murderous forces surrounding the Martin death—and yet they never stir protests.

The race-baiters argue this case deserves special attention because it fits the mold of white-on-black violence that fills the history books. Some have drawn a comparison to the murder of Emmett Till, a black boy who was killed in 1955 by white racists for whistling at a white woman.

The Martin case is very different from the Emmett Till case, in which a white segregationist Mississippi society approved of the murder of a black child. Black America needs to get out of the rut of replaying racial injustices of the past.

All minority parents fear that children who embrace "gangsta" fashion, tattoos and a thug attitude will be prejudged as criminal.

Recall what Jesse Jackson once said: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved. . . . After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating."

That is the unfair weight of being black in America for both the black person who feels the fear and the black teen who is judged as a criminal.

Despite stereotypes, the responsibility for the Florida shooting lies with the individual who pulled the trigger. The fact that the man pursued the teen after a 911 operator told him to back off, and the fact that he alone had a gun, calls for him to be arrested and held accountable under law. The Department of Justice is investigating the incident and the governor of Florida has appointed a special prosecutor to review the case.

But on a larger scale, all of this should open a serious national conversation about how our culture made it easier for this type of crime to take place.

As President Obama said last week, "I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen. And that means we examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident."

While civil rights leaders have raised their voices to speak out against this one tragedy, few if any will do the same about the larger tragedy of daily carnage that is black-on-black crime in America.

The most recent comprehensive study on black-on-black crime from the Justice Department should have been a clarion call for the black community to take action. There is no reason to believe that the trends it reported have decreased since 2005, the year for which the data were reported.

Almost one half of the nation's murder victims that year were black and a majority of them were between the ages of 17 and 29. Black people accounted for 13% of the total U.S. population in 2005. Yet they were the victims of 49% of all the nation's murders. And 93% of black murder victims were killed by other black people, according to the same report.

Less than half of black students graduate from high school. The education system's failure is often a jail sentence or even a death sentence. The Orlando Sentinel has reported that 17-year-old Martin was recently suspended from his high school. According to the U.S. Department of Education's Civil Rights Office, in the 2006-07 school year, 22% of all black and Hispanic K-12 students were suspended at least once (as compared to 5% of whites).

This year 22% of blacks live below the poverty line and a shocking 72% of black babies are born to unwed mothers. The national unemployment rate for black people increased last month to over 13%, nearly five points above the average for all Americans.

The killing of any child is a tragedy. But where are the protests regarding the larger problems facing black America?
Maybe its time for black Americans to stop automatically pulling the lever next to Democrat. Make someone earn your vote.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:04 PM   #225
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I have no issue with Juan Williams article. In fact I've been pondering many of the same sentiments.

I'll tell you what I do have an issue with is you bringing it up. I don't get the sense that what's going on in black communities around this country is near and dear to your heart and you're oh so torn up about it.

I deal with what Williams talks about this every single day with the students I teach, and for you to use it for the usual political point scoring is really aggravating.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:28 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by INDY500

Maybe its time for black Americans to stop automatically pulling the lever next to Democrat. Make someone earn your vote.
Wow, what an asinine statement. Unfortunately, not surprising though.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:00 PM   #227
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Maybe its time for black Americans to stop automatically pulling the lever next to Democrat. Make someone earn your vote.
I could say the same thing about white people who blindly vote Republican because of such simplistic reasoning ("they're for family values and I am, too"), but hey.

Certainly the issue mentioned in that article is one worth discussing and dealing with, it's equally as tragic as what happened here. But let's not sit there and complain about people making political hay out of the Zimmerman/Trayvon situation (which I wholeheartedly agree was and is disgusting) only to turn around and try and do the same with what was discussed in that article.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:14 PM   #228
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I could say the same thing about white people who blindly vote Republican
Ther' takin' r jobs!
I find it a little ironic that Indy is calling for black people to think for themselves, yet he's pretty much a walking right wing talking point

Though I find it difficult to agree with an article that points to "the importance of marriage", he makes a good point about the Emmett Till comparisons. The first time I saw that, I thought "You've got to be fucking kidding me". It's a minor detail though and I haven't seen it presented all that much
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:22 PM   #229
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:17 PM   #230
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I have no issue with Juan Williams article. In fact I've been pondering many of the same sentiments.

I'll tell you what I do have an issue with is you bringing it up. I don't get the sense that what's going on in black communities around this country is near and dear to your heart and you're oh so torn up about it.

I deal with what Williams talks about this every single day with the students I teach, and for you to use it for the usual political point scoring is really aggravating.
"Make someone earn your vote." I thought that seemed pretty clear that I'm not saying blindly vote for Republicans. But if you've voted a one party ticket for 50 years and have shit schools, shit neighborhoods and shit job opportunities to show for it... maybe it's time for some real change.

I'll accept that this is an emotional issue but you have no right to make the assumptions you make. I don't argue against the minimum wage because it affects me but because it affects entry level jobs (disproportionately affecting young blacks). I don't argue against teacher unions and for school vouchers because it affects me but because it affects those that can't escape bad public schools (again, disproportionately minorities). I don't argue for mandatory sentencing for drug and violent crimes because they are prevalent where I live but because every American has the right to safely walk the streets of their neighborhood. I don't argue against abortion-on-demand because I'm anti-woman but because I think each human being is precious in the eyes of the Lord. (blacks make up 12% of the population but account for 35% of abortions, a stat Juan Williams didn't include in his article but I would). And I don't post about runaway government spending and the dangers of government dependency because I hate the poor but because of the terrible waste of human capital that results from these mismanaged programs.

Now I agree, this shouldn't be about politics but can you name one Democrat that would make the arguments I just made? These are conservative ideas. Neither I nor conservatives claim to have all the answers but surely, after 50 years, we can see what doesn't work and what is in fact exacerbating our problems.

No you're right. "what's going on in black communities around this country" isn't the slightest concern to middle-class white conservative Christians such as myself. How foolish of me to think that concern for "what's going on in black communities around this country" could be expressed in any way except through bullhorns, "no justice, no peace" signs and voting the progressive social and economic agenda.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:52 AM   #231
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And the overwhelming majority of those black people are killed by other black people. Where is the march for them?
As Ta-Nehisi Coates pointed out in reply to Williams, five minutes on Google would've turned up recent coverage of numerous marches addressing precisely that issue, from cities across the country: Chicago, Harlem, Newark, Pittsburgh, Gary, Brooklyn, Saginaw...and that's just the initial search hits, and just coverage from the last 2 years. Dozens of US cities also have black-community-based organizations working to address gang violence in their neighborhoods; PBS is currently streaming the award-winning documentary The Interrupters, about one such organization based out of Chicago's South Side.

None of that ever makes national news, of course. But that doesn't excuse Williams' laziness in not taking a few minutes to answer his own (rhetorical) question. More to the point, none of it has anything to do with the Trayvon Martin case or why it matters. George Zimmerman has yet to be arrested and it's entirely possible that he never will be. Had he been charged, none of us would've ever heard of him. And if he is ultimately put on trial, that will only have happened because of the spotlight all these so-called "race-baiters" have turned on the case. Trayvon Martin doesn't represent the fear that your son will become a drug dealer, or an assault-weapon-toting gangster, or a permanently unemployed high school dropout. There certainly are some black parents (and some white parents, too) for whom one or more of those truly is a priority concern (and apparently, for some social conservatives, those are the ONLY legitimate fears ANY black parents are allowed to have for their sons). Rather, he represents the fear that some stranger (perhaps one in uniform), armed with a gun and the common tendency to automatically register a young black man as a potential threat, might put an end to your son's life in a moment of panicked confusion or paranoia. Or more "benignly," just the pain of knowing that in all likelihood your son will be repeatedly pulled over, stopped and frisked, blinded by a spotlight for having done nothing at all but be black in the wrong place at the wrong time, an alienating and humiliating experience you're powerless to protect him from.

I find the very phrase "black-on-black crime" problematic. Most violent crime in the US is intraracial, period; for example, most murdered white men (46% of all murder victims, FBI 2010) are killed by other white men (32% of all murderers, FBI 2010)--most often men who lived in close geographical proximity to them, most often in neighborhoods characterized by poverty, high youth unemployment, low academic achievement, and drugs. The same is true of most "black-on-black" murders. Yet no one speaks of "white-on-white crime," as if white men who kill other white men were driven to do so by their pathologically white nature, or contempt for their victim's shared whiteness.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:01 AM   #232
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Wow, what an asinine statement. Unfortunately, not surprising though.
So you think it's a poor response, so what. Play the ball, make an argument.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:32 AM   #233
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So you think it's a poor response, so what. Play the ball, make an argument.
Wasn't it just a line meant for trolling? It's straight out of the hard right play book. Get really upset and claim race baiting as much as you can, but do so while you constantly lump a whole race into one mindless group of voters.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:39 AM   #234
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Juan Williams: The Trayvon Martin Tragedies - WSJ.com

Maybe its time for black Americans to stop automatically pulling the lever next to Democrat. Make someone earn your vote.
It would behoove you to read this response before just assuming that Juan Williams is correct in his assumption that there is no black outrage.

Why Don't Black People Protest 'Black-on-Black Violence'? - Ta-Nehisi Coates - National - The Atlantic

Quote:
There is a kind of sincere black person who really would like to see even more outrage about violence in black communities. I don't think outrage will do it at this point, but I respect the sincere feeling.

And then there are pundits who write more than they read, and talk more than they listen, and prefer an easy creationism to a Google search.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:53 AM   #235
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This is horrible. Trayvon was also unarmed. So why in the hell would some dumbass murder an innocent child? I also think that people should stop saying "he got shot cuz he had his hood up". That's not the reason. It's just some dumb racist that had to take his anger out on someone else.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:17 PM   #236
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I'll accept that this is an emotional issue but you have no right to make the assumptions you make.
All I've got to go on in terms of assumptions is how you present yourself in this forum. I don't know the "real" you.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #237
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When NBC appeared to make the conscious decision to orient its news programming in a more spin-based direction to compete with the sensationalist Fox News, I think they threw out the fact-checking baby with the bathwater. Really sloppy shit.
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:49 PM   #238
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NBC is a desperate organization in general, that much is obvious.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:07 PM   #239
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Yeah, they just hired Sarah Palin to try to beat Katie on GMA. And they hired Seacrest to do the Olympics and to probably eventually replace Matt Lauer.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:15 PM   #240
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I saw clips of her appearance on there on "The Daily Show" last night.

As if morning shows weren't annoying enough already. Glad I missed out on that mess.
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