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Old 02-04-2008, 07:47 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


The people on your ignore list are much cooler than the people on mine.
do what I do


create cool one-off alters


and put them on your ignore list
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:48 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
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nice sig.. A_W
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:48 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

do what I do


create cool one-off alters


and put them on your ignore list


Nice.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:48 PM   #144
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


At what risk? We're not talking about safes here.

Bad info, accidental deaths, torturing innocents, etc...

At what cost is that "success is success" attitude squashed?
Hey, somebody wanted an argument, I supplied one, your not expecting it to be good?
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:56 PM   #145
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Fair enough...
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:58 PM   #146
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Hmmm... I love how we turned this into a God thing, because Diamond is a "Christian". LOL.

I've always wondered sometimes about where to draw the line. We go to measures well beyond torture to get information. We pay millions of dollars (bribery), use sex (oh yeah), and drugs, and just plain blackmail. Oh, btw, we listen, look, sense, and crunch digits with acres of super computers to know as much as we possibly can about our enemies. We kill.

But we sure as hell shouldn't torture. I'm serious.
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Old 02-04-2008, 07:58 PM   #147
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Originally posted by INDY500
Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life.
What a wonderful rationalization to make yourself feel better.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:02 PM   #148
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Originally posted by yolland
What do you mean by "the championing of death"?

I'd be more impressed with the 'WWJD' arguments if they were coming from self-professed absolute pacifists, or at least people who are taking the time to elaborate why (e.g.) going to war is morally permissible in certain circumstances whereas torture never is. If you're going to frame it as a religious argument, that is.
I'd like to know why these people will break their spines in justifying a Christian acceptance of torture, but some poor college student gets knocked up and wants to finish college instead of have the baby, and suddenly "Thall shalt not kill."


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Old 02-04-2008, 08:07 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Hmmm... I love how we turned this into a God thing, because Diamond is a "Christian". LOL.

I've always wondered sometimes about where to draw the line. We go to measures well beyond torture to get information. We pay millions of dollars (bribery), use sex (oh yeah), and drugs, and just plain blackmail. Oh, btw, we listen, look, sense, and crunch digits with acres of super computers to know as much as we possibly can about our enemies. We kill.

But we sure as hell shouldn't torture. I'm serious.
Yes, but I think the difference here is that those types of things happen "behind the scenes" whereas this is not, this administration has given itself power to do so. Very publically.

And I do believe someone's faith should be brought up, when he himself abuses it every chance he gets to judge, make one less equal, or force one's belief on others... When someone very publically uses their faith to say how they want this country to be shaped, believe me it will get brought up when he contradicts what that faith teaches.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:38 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Love your enemy...

What is your definition of "love?"

Do you live 100% by that statement?

If so, you opposed going after Al-Qaeda after 9/11, right?

You don't believe in any sort of prison or punishment for criminals, right?

If someone in your family was murdered, you wouldn't mind if he was never brought to justice, right?

If someone is mean to you, you are never ever mean in return or hostile in any way, right?

If you truly love your enemy, BVS, you can't possibly support any of the above.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:40 PM   #151
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pwnd?
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:45 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


What is your definition of "love?"

Do you live 100% by that statement?

If so, you opposed going after Al-Qaeda after 9/11, right?

You don't believe in any sort of prison or punishment for criminals, right?

If someone in your family was murdered, you wouldn't mind if he was never brought to justice, right?

If someone is mean to you, you are never ever mean in return or hostile in any way, right?

If you truly love your enemy, BVS, you can't possibly support any of the above.
I love my brother, but if committed a crime, he should go to jail. You can still treat your prisoners and enemies with basic human rights.

You love your children but you discipline them when they do wrong.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:48 PM   #153
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You see, that's all we're doing when we waterboard prisoners. We're just disciplining them. It's all done out of love.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:49 PM   #154
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so I guess we'll next have to argue suitable methods of discipline approved only by the jesus invokers of convenience.

dbs
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:54 PM   #155
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I'm sure the jesus invokers of convenience will see it fit that Joran Vandersloot's confession be thrown out as well-because the method of extracting the confession was dubious.

Bravo.

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Old 02-04-2008, 08:54 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
so I guess we'll next have to argue suitable methods of discipline approved only by the jesus invokers of convenience.

dbs
Like deny rights to those that aren't like you?

Wow, you go way out of your way to miss points, don't you?
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:58 PM   #157
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I'm sure the jesus invokers of convenience will see it fit that Joran Vandersloot's confession be thrown out as well-because the method of extracting the confession was dubious.



That mental illness is kicking in fast, eh?

If we allowed "any means necessary" someone could have you in prison tomorrow for life.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:15 PM   #158
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Explain?
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:22 PM   #159
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We have a checks and balances process for a reason.

If a confession was made in a way that doesn't fit the letter of the law, it can't be used. If a confession was made while the person was under the influence or something, it can't be used. We have these checks and balances to protect us. They may not always work in our favor, but if we break them we just make it that much easier for innocent people to be sentenced.

If we start allowing anything to be admitted as evidence or false confessions, then what's the point?
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:28 PM   #160
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Here's an example:

Diamond, let's say we started allowing torture within our borders in order to get "information", I could call up my FBI friend tomorrow tell him you have information on an attack. He takes you in and starts questioning you, you don't say anything, because honestly you have no info, I just made it up because I'm a pissed off neighbor. So you don't respond to normal questioning so he starts torturing you. You have two choices, die(or at least feel like you are going to die) or make up something in order to save your life...

How is this effective? Disgruntal neighbors, disgruntal employees, disgruntal terrorists they all have the ability to make something up to turn someone in.
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