Torture/Waterboarding: Discussion/Debate Thread

[A_Wanderer]

What a fucking annyoing thread, apart from people playing the hands of Jesus being pro-torture and Jesus wanting people to love religious facists (two things that aren't good) what does it have to do with a: the real world and b: the secular US government.

The CIA abuses it's power and will use torture if given the chance and if not it will outsource, I highly doubt there is ever a way to get around torture in the gaps. If it becomes a question of accountability then not allowing it legally is useful from a PR perspective and when push comes to shove when it does get used then the blood isn't on your hands.

Some of the new technology like those ray guns that stimulate nerve clusters under the skin could inflict intense pain without permanent physical (not to say mental) damage, with things that really leave no trace coming in accountability and oversight aren't just important, they are integral.

 

[anitram]

What a fucking annyoing thread, apart from people playing the hands of Jesus being pro-torture and Jesus wanting people to love religious facists (two things that aren't good) what does it have to do with a: the real world and b: the secular US government.

I have to agree with you.

And furthermore, anyone who claims they know what Jesus would do - frankly that's the sort of arrogance we could all do without.

 

[diamond]

I think that some Jesus invokers here would claim that Numerberg trails were incorrect too.

dbs

 

[Diemen]

I think that some Jesus invokers here would claim that Numerberg trails were incorrect too.

dbs

You're something else, db.

 

[BVS]

Diamond, maybe you should stop "thinking" then.

 

[phillyfan26]

Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life. Those Christians can support governments that seeks justice through capital punishment. They can fight in armies when their home, family or way of life are threatened. And they recognize that cruel things happen in war, things that would never be tolerated otherwise.

Thou shall not kill
Now who's being the "fundamentalist"?

Aside from this ridiculous attempt to justify it:

1. You can't prove they're terrorists.

2. Torture doesn't work.

If you, Diamond, 2618, or anyone else who's pro-torture addresses these, then there'll at least be some substance here.

 

[diamond]

The Jesus invokers shouldn't bring him into the argument.

Jesus will never force his will upon mankind; and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

Address Irvine's point about it not working.

 

[diamond]

It has worked-that's where we disagree.

Irvine doesn't like that it isn't a 100% effective, and guess what no methods are 100% effective-that's why it should be left on the table.

It saved lives at least once when used against one terrorist and that makes it worth it.

That said, that every terrorist is different, I would say have it as a last resort.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

1. You don't know the person you're torturing is even a terrorist, because there's no way to be certain.

2. That's like saying 1 guilty man being imprisoned is worth 100 innocent being imprisoned.

3. It's much more ineffective than you think. Most terrorists don't know enough to give relevant information, as I said earlier.

 

[Diemen]

and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

dbs

Comedy gold, diamond. When are your show times?

 

[BVS]

The Jesus invokers shouldn't bring him into the argument.

Jesus will never force his will upon mankind; and I find it curious how selectively some invoke Jesus when it's convenient.

dbs

This is rich coming from you.

Can we make this a sticky? Everyone should read this, and bring it up every time you go all hypocritical on us...

 

[diamond]

Which one of the 3 stooges burped?

phillyfan26
Online 02-04-2008 05:21 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]


Diemen
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BonoVoxSupastar
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[BVS]

Ignoring the truth just makes one ignorant.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Aside from this ridiculous attempt to justify it:

1. You can't prove they're terrorists.

2. Torture doesn't work.

If you, Diamond, 2618, or anyone else who's pro-torture addresses these, then there'll at least be some substance here.

1: You can accumulate a load of evidence supporting that contention, such as their names being dropped as planners by arrested terrorists like Ramzi Yousef, you can have the intercepts and present that evidence to an independent body that makes the judgement.

2: It does if you do it enough.

 

[anitram]

Although I am certainly on that same list, I will be kind to you and say that this:

The Jesus invokers shouldn't bring him into the argument.

is one of those rare cognizant moments that you have.

 

[BVS]

2: It does if you do it enough.

So does shooting bullets in the sky...

 

[A_Wanderer]

Success is success, like trying to crack a safe with a hammer.

 

[BVS]

Success is success, like trying to crack a safe with a hammer.

At what risk? We're not talking about safes here.

Bad info, accidental deaths, torturing innocents, etc...

At what cost is that "success is success" attitude squashed?

 

[Diemen]

Which one of the 3 stooges burped?

phillyfan26
Online 02-04-2008 05:21 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]


Diemen
Online 02-04-2008 05:23 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]


BonoVoxSupastar
Online 02-04-2008 05:26 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

The people on your ignore list are much cooler than the people on mine.

 

[deep]

The people on your ignore list are much cooler than the people on mine.

do what I do


create cool one-off alters


and put them on your ignore list

 

[diamond]

.

nice sig.. A_W

 

[Diemen]

Originally posted by deep

do what I do


create cool one-off alters


and put them on your ignore list

Nice.

 

[A_Wanderer]

At what risk? We're not talking about safes here.

Bad info, accidental deaths, torturing innocents, etc...

At what cost is that "success is success" attitude squashed?

Hey, somebody wanted an argument, I supplied one, your not expecting it to be good?

 

[BVS]

Fair enough...

 

[MadelynIris]

Hmmm... I love how we turned this into a God thing, because Diamond is a "Christian". LOL.

I've always wondered sometimes about where to draw the line. We go to measures well beyond torture to get information. We pay millions of dollars (bribery), use sex (oh yeah), and drugs, and just plain blackmail. Oh, btw, we listen, look, sense, and crunch digits with acres of super computers to know as much as we possibly can about our enemies. We kill.

But we sure as hell shouldn't torture. I'm serious.

 

[martha]

Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life.

What a wonderful rationalization to make yourself feel better.

 

[martha]

What do you mean by "the championing of death"?

I'd be more impressed with the 'WWJD' arguments if they were coming from self-professed absolute pacifists, or at least people who are taking the time to elaborate why (e.g.) going to war is morally permissible in certain circumstances whereas torture never is. If you're going to frame it as a religious argument, that is.

I'd like to know why these people will break their spines in justifying a Christian acceptance of torture, but some poor college student gets knocked up and wants to finish college instead of have the baby, and suddenly "Thall shalt not kill."

 

[BVS]

Hmmm... I love how we turned this into a God thing, because Diamond is a "Christian". LOL.

I've always wondered sometimes about where to draw the line. We go to measures well beyond torture to get information. We pay millions of dollars (bribery), use sex (oh yeah), and drugs, and just plain blackmail. Oh, btw, we listen, look, sense, and crunch digits with acres of super computers to know as much as we possibly can about our enemies. We kill.

But we sure as hell shouldn't torture. I'm serious.

Yes, but I think the difference here is that those types of things happen "behind the scenes" whereas this is not, this administration has given itself power to do so. Very publically.

And I do believe someone's faith should be brought up, when he himself abuses it every chance he gets to judge, make one less equal, or force one's belief on others... When someone very publically uses their faith to say how they want this country to be shaped, believe me it will get brought up when he contradicts what that faith teaches.

 

[2861U2]

Love your enemy...

What is your definition of "love?"

Do you live 100% by that statement?

If so, you opposed going after Al-Qaeda after 9/11, right?

You don't believe in any sort of prison or punishment for criminals, right?

If someone in your family was murdered, you wouldn't mind if he was never brought to justice, right?

If someone is mean to you, you are never ever mean in return or hostile in any way, right?

If you truly love your enemy, BVS, you can't possibly support any of the above.