Torture/Waterboarding: Discussion/Debate Thread

[2861U2]

Either that or your belief in God is a temporary thing that you can turn off when you get upset or when someone does something wrong.

As for myself, that is certainly not the case. I don't ever "turn off" my faith. Maycocksean said something I liked a few pages ago, saying that this might just be an area where my beliefs don't square. And if that's the case, I certainly need to work on it.

Nobody's perfect. I'm sure there isn't a person in here who doesn't struggle with squaring their various beliefs, and it's even harder for people of faith who want to live by the Bible.

 

[2861U2]

Who would Jesus waterboard?

Exactly. That's completely unfathomable. Just like how God would never destroy cities or wipe out the human race with a flood.



Wait a second...

 

[Irvine511]

To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven...A time of war, And a time of peace (Ecclesiastes 3:1,8)

when is it time to torture?

while i of course believe that GWB is beholden to people who would indeed wish to have a theocratic Christian order in the United States, i do think the president himself cares too much, insofar as that might be complicated to understand.

you see, torture is a sign of laziness. and this president is nothing if not lazy. it's the quick and easy path, it's the half-assed way to get some information that may or may not be true. it's just like with Iraq. instead of spending the time and building an actual case against Saddam, this president (and Cheney, and Rummy, and even Colin Powell) decided that WMDs would be the quickest, easiest way to get their policy enacted, and so they went about manipulating intelligence.

quick and easy. and lazy. to ruinous ends.

my objection to torture has NOTHING to do with religion, and i don't think anyone's arguing that, because Christians are against torture, then the US government should be against torture. i think they are pointing out the inconsistencies between self-proclaimed Christians in here, and their embrace of torture.

 

[martha]

Exactly. That's completely unfathomable. Just like how God would never destroy cities or wipe out the human race with a flood.



Wait a second...

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Irvine511]

Exactly. That's completely unfathomable. Just like how God would never destroy cities or wipe out the human race with a flood.



Wait a second...

protect me from this "God" you speak of.

this genocidal maniac is obviously not worth anything but fear, certainly not respect or love.

 

[U2democrat]

Would it be better to have a seperate waterboarding/torture thread? That way the actual discussion of the race doesn't get lost in here.

 

[martha]

Exactly. That's completely unfathomable. Just like how God would never destroy cities or wipe out the human race with a flood.

So now you're God? Or GWB is? Or the generals are?

Clarify, please. Who doing the torture, or condoning it, is God?

 

[anitram]

Would it be better to have a seperate waterboarding/torture thread? That way the actual discussion of the race doesn't get lost in here.

Yes, PLEASE!

 

[Diemen]

Exactly. That's completely unfathomable. Just like how God would never destroy cities or wipe out the human race with a flood.



Wait a second...

So let me get this straight. You're saying that you think Jesus would be ok with torturing our enemies?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Would it be better to have a seperate waterboarding/torture thread? That way the actual discussion of the race doesn't get lost in here.

Yes.

I don't really feel like going through the entire thread and separating it out post by post. But I can if it's needed. If people want to keep discussing the torture issue, I'd suggest starting a new thread.

Back to the presidential race...

 

[diamond]

So let me get this straight. You're saying that you think Jesus would be ok with torturing our enemies?

I don't think Jesus' aim is to micro manage our free will, liberals do.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

Go.

 

[phillyfan26]

Yes.

I don't really feel like going through the entire thread and separating it out post by post. But I can if it's needed. If people want to keep discussing the torture issue, I'd suggest starting a new thread.

Back to the presidential race...

Done.

 

[phillyfan26]

For citizens of our country, not terrorists or enemy combatants.
They shouldn't expect to have the same rights as USA citizens, nor do they, only the liberal left is trying to foist it upon them.

This is why you can argue that modern liberalism is a mental disorder.

db

This doesn't make sense, because there's no system in place to "decide" who's a terrorist and who isn't. With that logic, you could torture anyone, as long as you think there's a chance they could be a terrorist and there's a chance that if they are a terrorist they might have relevant information.

Enough with the mental disorder comments. You disagree, fine. Enough with the childish games. I feel older than some of the people in this forum.

 

[phillyfan26]

I don't think Jesus' aim is to micro manage our free will, liberals do.

dbs

Explain this to me, because if you were to ask me who thinks Jesus micromanages, I'd absolutely think it's the right. Who else uses the Bible for law and to hate?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Done.

Thanks.

 

[martha]

I don't think Jesus' aim is to micro manage our free will, liberals do.

dbs

So all you'll have to do is apologize for your support of torturing another human being, and you're off the hook. Right?

 

[BVS]

I don't think Jesus' aim is to micro manage our free will, liberals do.

dbs

Diamond, where do you come up with this crap? It's a complete lie...

I guess it's easy to live with yourself, if you just actually don't know any better.

 

[U2democrat]

Because I can:

Aaaaanyway, I'll just echo the sentiments of Irvine, Diemen, BVS, etc. Torture = Not Christian, nor is it American.

 

[Irvine511]

i don't give a shit about torture being non-Christian or non-American.

it. doesn't. work.

 

[U2democrat]

That too.

 

[Diemen]

I don't think Jesus' aim is to micro manage our free will, liberals do.

dbs

Nice dodge. Now how about actually answering the question. It's a yes or no:

Would Jesus would be ok with torturing our enemies?

 

[INDY500]

Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life. Those Christians can support governments that seeks justice through capital punishment. They can fight in armies when their home, family or way of life are threatened. And they recognize that cruel things happen in war, things that would never be tolerated otherwise.

Thou shall not kill
Now who's being the "fundamentalist"?

 

[BVS]

This addresses torture how?

I love how the most far right of this board are avoiding the real issue by miles. Twisting, turning, dodging anything to get out of this corner they've painted themselves in.

 

[Diemen]

Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life. Those Christians can support governments that seeks justice through capital punishment. They can fight in armies when their home, family or way of life are threatened. And they recognize that cruel things happen in war, things that would never be tolerated otherwise.

Thou shall not kill
Now who's being the "fundamentalist"?

Again, a complete dodge. Would Jesus be ok with torturing our enemies? Yes or no.

I suspect many of you know the answer, but are unwilling to face it because it doesn't jive with the (false) reality you've created, where torture is necessary to get information, and it's fine because they would do so much worse to us.

 

[BVS]

Love your enemy...

Maybe some of you are having a problem with what the definition of 'love' is.

Maybe 'love' in right wing circles mean make them feel like they are drowning.

Ya'lls bedrooms should be interesting places.

 

[anitram]

Again, Motive.

Thou shall not kill

Some Christians take this to mean ever.

But most take this to mean thou shall not murder or take innocent life. Those Christians can support governments that seeks justice through capital punishment.

As far as I'm aware, the Catholic Church is adamantly anti-capital punishment. And as far as I'm aware, Catholics are by far the largest group of Christians (outnumbering all Protestant denominations by a margin of more than 2:1).

So I'm not sure how you concluded that MOST Christians support any such thing.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I think it's an American Christian thing only, in that area where it somehow, somewhere in your history faith got heavily twisted in with patriotism/nationalism. Pro-war, pro-death penalty etc - I know that your normal, average Christian church in Sydney would be the last place you'd find those traits, but I get the feeling that a Christian church in some parts of the US would be the first place to look...

I don't see any hypocrisy between the Christian 'thou shalt not kill', and someone doing what they need to do in certain scenarios. The difference is in the championing of death. That's where the hypocrisy is. I don't see how that matches up with the Christian faith at all. Not for anything. Especially not for a flag.

 

[yolland]

What do you mean by "the championing of death"?

I'd be more impressed with the 'WWJD' arguments if they were coming from self-professed absolute pacifists, or at least people who are taking the time to elaborate why (e.g.) going to war is morally permissible in certain circumstances whereas torture never is. If you're going to frame it as a religious argument, that is.

 

[BVS]

What do you mean by "the championing of death"?

I'd be more impressed with the 'WWJD' arguments if they were coming from self-professed absolute pacifists, or at least people who are taking the time to elaborate why (e.g.) going to war is morally permissible in certain circumstances whereas torture never is. If you're going to frame it as a religious argument, that is.

I think there are times for war, be in defending yourself, or in order to stop genocides...

Torture doesn't fit in either one of those...

Irvine is right, the fact that it doesn't work, should be enough.

But it is interesting when those that want to bring this country closer and closer to a theocracy, those that speak that their faith guides their vote and their moral compasses, don't let it guide their compasses when it comes to this and so many other issues.