Torture/Waterboarding: Discussion/Debate Thread

[diamond]

Originally posted by maycocksean


Diamond: The serial killer of straw men.

beguiled by only a few...

[hiphop]

Originally posted by martha


Bullshit. I finally got around to watching "The Lives of Others" tonight. All I can say to people who think torture is ever ever justified is "What the fuck are you thinking?" Do you not remember the horror stories coming out of the Soviet Bloc? Do you not remember the people who risked everything to get away from that? The same people who think the United States should torture people are the very same ones who criticized the Soviets for the very same behavior.

What a load of shit.

I´m with you martha.

Thank you for defending Christian values.

Funny, I´ve had an interesting discussion today about forgiveness - whether it was a Christian value or a human value. Some religions are not as focused on forgiveness; Christianity surely is (in the scripture and the message of Jesus). For example, in the Japanese culture forgiveness is not that important. Whereas suicide can save your honor, traditionally. In the Japanese culture, it was worse being banned than being sentenced to death, because of the irreparable damage the criminal had done to society. Being sentenced to death, he could "level" the bill, whereas being banned, society did not give him any chance to regain his honor.

This is just to make the point that Christian values lay more importance on forgiveness than other cultures. (Which doesn´t necessarily make it better than any other religion or culture).

diamond, it would be appreciated if you studied the Bible a litte more at times - for your moral values are quite fucked up. You defend torture? what a shame.

[diamond]

[deep]

[deep]

[hiphop]

what was it you wanted to say deep?

[deep]

I got FIRED UP



and
posted in the wrong thread

that's all


(I have not taken time to read this thread)

[Abomb-baby]

I love this thread. I haven't posted on here in a long time but I just don't feel bad that this interrogation method was used. I have tried to see it other ways, but when I saw thousands of my countrymen and woman murdered on 9/11, it all changed for me. I think about all the wives who will never see there husbands again. All the children who will never grow up with a mother or a father, it hardened me. The only thing these people did wrong was wake up and decide to go to work on a Tuesday in September. I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it. I believe that it is stark in comparison to seeing Daniel Pearl's head sliced from his body. These people cannot be reasoned with. We could get out of the middle east hand over Israel and it wouldn't be enough! I'm tired of people on this forum beating down anyone with a difference of opinion. Freeing your mind works both ways. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion. I also know that there is a huge difference between what our government has done in Iraq, and what Al Qaeda has done there. We are different. I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous. Ok, I've got my Asbestos undies on, send in the flames!

[BVS]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it.

So were they found guilty before or after you tortured them? This has always been my issue, this assumption that everyone we pick up for terrorism is automatically a terrorist.

[Abomb-baby]

Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

so best to rely on the accounts of the effectiveness and humane-ness of the torturing by those who actually did the torturing.

they would know best, after all.

(it's not like this stuff was kept hidden for a reason)

[BVS]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

I like to rely on some sort of justice system, but hey, that's just me...

[Abomb-baby]

Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

if you can stop with your hysterical hyperbole and calm down, i'd be happy to have an actual discussion with you. if you're going to put thoughts in my head that are of the same level of a 5th grade "BUT HE HIT ME FIRST!!!" argument, i'm not going to waste my time.

[BVS]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika!

See, this is when logical debate is gone, when people automatically start twisting defensively.

You and INDY would get along well.

[Abomb-baby]

Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.

[phillyfan26]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

That was the only shouting I noticed.

I think Irvine's words hold true.

[BVS]

Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.

Yes, but every side has an extreme. And since no one has presented that extreme in here you failed by presenting it first...

If we all addressed every issue with such tactics, we'd get no where.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
I love this thread. I haven't posted on here in a long time but I just don't feel bad that this interrogation method was used. I have tried to see it other ways, but when I saw thousands of my countrymen and woman murdered on 9/11, it all changed for me. I think about all the wives who will never see there husbands again. All the children who will never grow up with a mother or a father, it hardened me. The only thing these people did wrong was wake up and decide to go to work on a Tuesday in September. I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it. I believe that it is stark in comparison to seeing Daniel Pearl's head sliced from his body. These people cannot be reasoned with. We could get out of the middle east hand over Israel and it wouldn't be enough! I'm tired of people on this forum beating down anyone with a difference of opinion. Freeing your mind works both ways. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion. I also know that there is a huge difference between what our government has done in Iraq, and what Al Qaeda has done there. We are different. I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous. Ok, I've got my Asbestos undies on, send in the flames!

and this means that they've already won. they've already achieved their goal on 9-11.

the goal wasn't to kill people. the goal wasn't to achieve a spectacular attack. the goal wasn't a comeuppance for American policy in the Middle East.

the goal was to get us to destroy ourselves -- who we are, what we'll do, and what we won't -- from the inside out.

[phillyfan26]

Originally posted by Abomb-baby
I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it.

The huge, gaping hole in your argument: the idea that waterboarding stops terrorist attacks.