Torture/Waterboarding: Discussion/Debate Thread

[diamond]

Diamond: The serial killer of straw men.

beguiled by only a few...

 

[hiphop]

Bullshit. I finally got around to watching "The Lives of Others" tonight. All I can say to people who think torture is ever ever justified is "What the fuck are you thinking?" Do you not remember the horror stories coming out of the Soviet Bloc? Do you not remember the people who risked everything to get away from that? The same people who think the United States should torture people are the very same ones who criticized the Soviets for the very same behavior.

What a load of shit.

I´m with you martha.

Thank you for defending Christian values.

Funny, I´ve had an interesting discussion today about forgiveness - whether it was a Christian value or a human value. Some religions are not as focused on forgiveness; Christianity surely is (in the scripture and the message of Jesus). For example, in the Japanese culture forgiveness is not that important. Whereas suicide can save your honor, traditionally. In the Japanese culture, it was worse being banned than being sentenced to death, because of the irreparable damage the criminal had done to society. Being sentenced to death, he could "level" the bill, whereas being banned, society did not give him any chance to regain his honor.

This is just to make the point that Christian values lay more importance on forgiveness than other cultures. (Which doesn´t necessarily make it better than any other religion or culture).

diamond, it would be appreciated if you studied the Bible a litte more at times - for your moral values are quite fucked up. You defend torture? what a shame.

 

[diamond]

 

[deep]

[No message]

 

[deep]

[No message]

 

[hiphop]

what was it you wanted to say deep?

 

[deep]

I got FIRED UP

and
posted in the wrong thread

that's all


(I have not taken time to read this thread)

 

[Abomb-baby]

I love this thread. I haven't posted on here in a long time but I just don't feel bad that this interrogation method was used. I have tried to see it other ways, but when I saw thousands of my countrymen and woman murdered on 9/11, it all changed for me. I think about all the wives who will never see there husbands again. All the children who will never grow up with a mother or a father, it hardened me. The only thing these people did wrong was wake up and decide to go to work on a Tuesday in September. I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it. I believe that it is stark in comparison to seeing Daniel Pearl's head sliced from his body. These people cannot be reasoned with. We could get out of the middle east hand over Israel and it wouldn't be enough! I'm tired of people on this forum beating down anyone with a difference of opinion. Freeing your mind works both ways. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion. I also know that there is a huge difference between what our government has done in Iraq, and what Al Qaeda has done there. We are different. I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous. Ok, I've got my Asbestos undies on, send in the flames!

 

[BVS]

And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it.

So were they found guilty before or after you tortured them? This has always been my issue, this assumption that everyone we pick up for terrorism is automatically a terrorist.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

 

[Irvine511]

Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

so best to rely on the accounts of the effectiveness and humane-ness of the torturing by those who actually did the torturing.

they would know best, after all.

(it's not like this stuff was kept hidden for a reason)

 

[BVS]

Well, since neither of us was there during these interrogations, I guess it would be impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, right? I guess my assumption is that they were terrorists and yours is they weren't? How is one anymore right than the other?

I like to rely on some sort of justice system, but hey, that's just me...

 

[Abomb-baby]

Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

 

[Irvine511]

Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

if you can stop with your hysterical hyperbole and calm down, i'd be happy to have an actual discussion with you. if you're going to put thoughts in my head that are of the same level of a 5th grade "BUT HE HIT ME FIRST!!!" argument, i'm not going to waste my time.

 

[BVS]

Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika!

See, this is when logical debate is gone, when people automatically start twisting defensively.

You and INDY would get along well.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.

 

[phillyfan26]

Humane-ness? I never said anything about it being humane. However I will take the word of a CIA interrogator over an Al Qaeda operative any day of the week. Oh wait, the only bad people that exist are in Bush's 4th Reich of Amerika! Please do tell me how we stop these people from running planes into our buildings and cutting our citizens heads off! Oh, we open dialog with them! Maybe get the UN involved. Or perhaps bring them before the world court!

That was the only shouting I noticed.

I think Irvine's words hold true.

 

[BVS]

Well, its unfortunate that others that agree with your argument aren't told the same. I'm not hysterical. I feel everyone has a right to an opinion and many on this particular post are basically shouted down when they are in disagreement.

Yes, but every side has an extreme. And since no one has presented that extreme in here you failed by presenting it first...

If we all addressed every issue with such tactics, we'd get no where.

 

[Irvine511]

I love this thread. I haven't posted on here in a long time but I just don't feel bad that this interrogation method was used. I have tried to see it other ways, but when I saw thousands of my countrymen and woman murdered on 9/11, it all changed for me. I think about all the wives who will never see there husbands again. All the children who will never grow up with a mother or a father, it hardened me. The only thing these people did wrong was wake up and decide to go to work on a Tuesday in September. I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it. I believe that it is stark in comparison to seeing Daniel Pearl's head sliced from his body. These people cannot be reasoned with. We could get out of the middle east hand over Israel and it wouldn't be enough! I'm tired of people on this forum beating down anyone with a difference of opinion. Freeing your mind works both ways. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion. I also know that there is a huge difference between what our government has done in Iraq, and what Al Qaeda has done there. We are different. I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous. Ok, I've got my Asbestos undies on, send in the flames!

and this means that they've already won. they've already achieved their goal on 9-11.

the goal wasn't to kill people. the goal wasn't to achieve a spectacular attack. the goal wasn't a comeuppance for American policy in the Middle East.

the goal was to get us to destroy ourselves -- who we are, what we'll do, and what we won't -- from the inside out.

 

[phillyfan26]

I never want to see it happen again. And I'm sorry , but if that means we water board some terrorists, I'm okay with it.

The huge, gaping hole in your argument: the idea that waterboarding stops terrorist attacks.

 

[martha]

I just think that the whole idea that we have stirred the pot for another attack is ridiculous.

Then you'd be wrong.

 

[Abomb-baby]

the goal was to get us to destroy ourselves -- who we are, what we'll do, and what we won't -- from the inside out.

Do you honestly believe this crap? I'm sorry but the islama facists aren't concerned with our change in ideology or what lines we're willing to cross. They care about killing as many infidels as they can, period. If the shear numbers of dead weren't that important, they could have gotten the message across another way. Thats why they continue to blow up buses and markets in Israel. Its blood and numbers. You don't reason with these animals. You fight dirty and you bring the fight to them. We did not ask for 9/11.

 

[diamond]

Finally Abomb-baby injects some common sense reasoning into this thread.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

You two are both incredibly obtuse. I've never seen such a blatantly inept analysis of foreign policy and torture.

These are not stupid people or animals. These are intelligent human beings. Evil? Absolutely. But they're smart. They understand that they're incredibly outnumbered. What Irvine is saying about destroying ourselves is absolutely correct: it's the only way they will make the progress they are looking for. They'll never obtain the manpower to just continue killing people. It has to be an attack on ideology, for them. It always has been an attack on ideology. Why do you think they hate us? Because of our ideology.

And you can't torture because A) you don't know if you're torturing a terrorist or not and you can't prove it definitively and B) because torturing is ineffective.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you honestly believe this crap? I'm sorry but the islama facists aren't concerned with our change in ideology or what lines we're willing to cross. They care about killing as many infidels as they can, period. If the shear numbers of dead weren't that important, they could have gotten the message across another way. Thats why they continue to blow up buses and markets in Israel. Its blood and numbers. You don't reason with these animals. You fight dirty and you bring the fight to them. We did not ask for 9/11.

tell me, how are we bringing the fight to them?

i also think you make a huge mistake equating Hamas with Al-Qaeda and tossing all Muslims -- even radicalized, violent Muslims -- into the same pile. it's just not that simple.

they are not all the same. their goals are not all the same. and the very nature of the 9-11 attacks shows that symbolism was more important than numbers dead. the goal was to attack in such a way that it would provoke America to do things it would not normally do, both internally and externally. and it has certainly succeded in that.

ETA: and what's more, if you want to *help* them murder more Americans, go ahead and make torture legal, make it policy. because men will say ANYTHING to get you to stop. so they cough up what you want to hear. you spend manhours tracking down that ticking time bomb, you race to Los Angeles, you burst into the room and you find ... nothing.

and then the real bomb goes off at a Ravens game in Baltimore.

 

[diamond]

Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs

 

[BVS]

Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

Do you go out of your way to play dumb?

 

[redhotswami]

Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs

I don't know what cerain techniques are but they sound scary. I don't understand why you and so many others only see one extreme or the other. We've got a judicial process. It's not perfect, but it works. Why not put it to good use? Why should we even bother signing these treaties if we're going to break the laws we "agree" to?

Geneva Conventions - torture is illegal
U.S. Constitution - all treaties etc. shall be the law of the land.

Promoting torture is promoting the same sort of lawlessness that these terrorists live under.

Sometimes I think it'd be great if everyone who believed in killing, torturing, etc. could just migrate to their own isolated island and deal with each other. If we can't adhere to our own Constitution, then we are in more trouble than we realize.

 

[Irvine511]

Yep, I'm sure if we post a memo that we won't ask tough questions or use cerain techniques, they'll be delivering us flowers in the morning Irvine.

That will solve everything.

Brilliant.

dbs

oh please.

it's not like "we either torture, or we perform fellatio on them."

this is the kind of thinking that mistakes Afghanistan for Iraq.

 

[BVS]

this is the kind of thinking that mistakes Afghanistan for Iraq.

But they are the same, Sting said so...