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Old 02-05-2008, 01:27 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and the way you get the WRONG interrogators is when you authorize torture.

.
according to you...maybe that bespeaks your own weakness.


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Old 02-05-2008, 01:46 PM   #202
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If there are 10 minutes left for a nuclear bomb to detonate, and you have a terrorist before you who you know has the answers and this bomb could kill thousands of innocent men women and children and you've exhausted your interrogation techinques, and haven't used waterbording yet-then I think that would be a useful tool that could be applied at that time.
24 didn't contact you to write some scripts during the writer's strike?
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:47 PM   #203
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:01 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
1) Who is defining "torture"? Calling every aggressive interrogation technique "torture" as some here do is simply ridiculous. And it smacks less of moral outrage and more of political opposition to everything Bush. Everything Bush, from the Patriot Act, to Gitmo to the NSA to the surge. It's all BAD, BAD, BAD -- it's shredding the constitution, ignoring human rights -- or so we're told.
This is actually pretty weak. A very lazy leap in logic. No one has called every "aggressive iterrogation technique" torture. So I'm really not sure where you get this "as some here do". And your jump that this would somehow be different if it weren't Bush is just ridiculous. Sorry but this is one of your laziest theories.
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

2 ) If a complete ban on torture would be a good thing, wouldn't a complete ban on killing be better? Why is it sometimes justified to go to war, launch missiles or even set entire cities aflame, but "torture," oh no, can't have any of that? How do you draw the line there?
I think this goes along the lines of 2861u2's questioning of prisons and criminals. You still have to defend yourself and you still have to punish those that break the law, but you do it with the intent of trying to uphold basic human rights.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

3) I'll say it again, not all "torture" is created equal. Motive. Your moral GPS must be stuck on "relative," or "hate Bush" if you confuse the supervised, restrained albeit tough interrogation of a few high-value detainees suspected of having names, details or other information that could save the lives of American troops or innocent civilians -- with the sadistic murders, forced confessions, intimidation, or cowardly acts of terrorism seen all too from those we seek to....I almost said kill.
But if we can't slap someone around why would we ever think killing them was justified?

This is not condoning the torture of humans. But let's get real. If you can think of no scenario (ticking bomb, kidnapped child, etc) in which you'd never, ever condone force to get vital information out of someone suspected of having it;
If someone has a gun pointed at you and your only choice is to kill, then kill you must, but like I said, hopefully we try even in war to have the least amount of casuallties possible.

Yes there will be times when aggressive interogation will be needed, but like Irvine says if its sanctioned you won't have to wait for those extreme times. If it isn't sanctioned then true thought has to go into the ramifications of such interogation.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:00 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
there has not been a single instance of some kind of ticking bomb where waterboarding has been used by the US. it has all been to get information, not to ascertain information about any sort of plot that was already in motion and had lives in the balance.
CIA director Michael Hayden acknowledged as much to Congress today.
Quote:
Associated Press, Feb. 5

"We used it against these three detainees because of the circumstances at the time," Hayden said. "There was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were inevitable. And we had limited knowledge about al-Qaida and its workings. Those two realities have changed."

Hayden said that Khalid Sheik Mohammed—the purported mastermind of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States—and Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri were subject to the harsh interrogations in 2002 and 2003. Waterboarding is an interrogation technique that critics call torture.

"Waterboarding taken to its extreme, could be death, you could drown someone," [national intelligence director] McConnell acknowledged. He said waterboarding remains a technique in the CIA's arsenal, but it would require the consent of the president and legal approval of the attorney general. "If there was a reason to use such a technique, you would have to make a judgment on the circumstances and the situation regarding the specifics of the event," he said.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:15 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




protect me from this "God" you speak of.

this genocidal maniac is obviously not worth anything but fear, certainly not respect or love.


Two things I find very interesting in this thread:

1. The liberals twisting the arms of the religious by throwing their own book back in their face, even though doing so makes very little sense and will accomplish nothing but stir the pot.

2. Those very same religious folks thinking those liberals actually give a shit about what's in their book in the first place. I'm not talking about BVS or Philly, but the majority of atheist liberals on the forum.

Weird discussion here.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:21 PM   #207
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Wait - you've made up your mind that most liberals on this forum are atheist?
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:22 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

2. Those very same religious folks thinking those liberals actually give a shit about what's in their book in the first place. I'm not talking about BVS or Philly, but the majority of atheist liberals on the forum.
Can you actually tell me who these atheist liberals on FYM are?

I've been around here for a while and among regular participants I don't even know if I could come up with more than 5. And the most outspoken atheist here is no liberal to begin with.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:26 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Can you actually tell me who these atheist liberals on FYM are?

I've been around here for a while and among regular participants I don't even know if I could come up with more than 5. And the most outspoken atheist here is no liberal to begin with.
I can't read their minds and dig down dig into their innermost psyche, but the vast majority here do not seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions, and those that do are regularly taken down a peg.

Perhaps I mixed up apathy with disbelief. I don't know.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:29 PM   #210
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Oh, and for the record, I am against waterboarding. It's almost impossible for me to reconcile my faith in this area. And like Pfan said, it's impossible to know whether or not you're torturing an innocent man.

I just found the way people were debating this very strange.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:29 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
I can't read their minds and dig down dig into their innermost psyche, but the vast majority here do not seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions, and those that do are regularly taken down a peg.
I don't even know what to say to that.

First of all, even for most Christians (ie. Catholics), the Bible is not the final authority. Second, most of this planet reasonably does not "seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions" because they are not Christian to begin with! Do you think there are no Jews, Buddhists, Hindus here?
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:33 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Do you think there are no Jews, Buddhists, Hindus here?
They don't count anyway.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:34 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I don't even know what to say to that.

First of all, even for most Christians (ie. Catholics), the Bible is not the final authority. Second, most of this planet reasonably does not "seem to weigh the Bible into any of their political opinions" because they are not Christian to begin with! Do you think there are no Jews,
Buddhists, Hindus here?
Nope, didn't think of that when I first wrote my post. Probably should have. Was a bit hasty there, sorry.

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:35 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Two things I find very interesting in this thread:

1. The liberals twisting the arms of the religious by throwing their own book back in their face, even though doing so makes very little sense and will accomplish nothing but stir the pot.

You mean like every time the "liberals" discuss something and we get the Bible used as the final authority for secular law?

And since when do conservatives get to be the only ones who are "religious"?
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:37 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
I wanted to know how Christians could so whole-heartedly support torture, when it goes against everything Jesus stood for. I think the answers have been interesting.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:37 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


You mean like every time the "liberals" discuss something and we get the Bible used as the final authority for secular law?

And since when do conservatives get to be the only ones who are "religious"?
Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Nope, didn't think of that when I first wrote my post. Probably should have. Was a bit hasty there, sorry.

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
Claiming that only those who share faith in the same God as me are religious was a ridiculous point, and I'm sorry. But the rest stands.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:41 PM   #217
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Originally posted by martha


I wanted to know how Christians could so whole-heartedly support torture, when it goes against everything Jesus stood for. I think the answers have been interesting.
Interesting, maybe. But there is an element of arm-twisting to it as well. Besides, "whole-heartedly" makes it sound as if they enjoy it or something similarly sadistic.

Keep in mind that I agree with you in this area, but I'm just not sure if that particular debating tactic is entirely productive.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:42 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

I still maintain that using the Bible to defend your point is essentially worthless on this forum (especially since the majority will not share your faith anyway) and I'm curious of why people continue to do so. That was my original point, anyway.
I actually agree with you 100%.

I have no idea why we're talking about any of this in here. I have no idea why we constantly have to talk about religion when it comes to almost any kind of political discussion. We debate these same issues abroad, outside of the US, without ever resorting to the Bible. If is certainly possible, and frankly it elevates the discourse to something far more intelligent and far less emotional.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:49 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


I actually agree with you 100%.

I have no idea why we're talking about any of this in here. I have no idea why we constantly have to talk about religion when it comes to almost any kind of political discussion. We debate these same issues abroad, outside of the US, without ever resorting to the Bible. If is certainly possible, and frankly it elevates the discourse to something far more intelligent and far less emotional.
"Separation of church and state" is not yet a reality in this country, though we preach it regularly.

I wouldn't think Jesus would torture anyone, I really wouldn't, but it's hard to tell when the entire OT preaches a gospel of "do whatever it takes" in the area of warfare. It just seems to me like people have been trying to guilt the religious into agreeing with them by bringing it up. Please tell me I'm wrong.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:18 PM   #220
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It's not so much trying to guilt as trying to bring up a bit of hypocrisy in some who were taking up the pro-torture position in this thread. I personally can't find a way to reconcile a faith in Christianity with this topic at hand, and so I brought it up (admittedly not in the most refined way).

Ultimately, I would much rather not have religion enter the dialogue as often as it does here and I do believe that the argument against torture can be quite convincingly made without bringing religion into it (just see Irvine's response to Indy a page back for an eloquent example), but I thought it was an important point to bring up considering that some of the people arguing in favor of torturing are also those who on other issues have essentially argued for turning Christian beliefs into law.
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