Tipping....do you?

[doctorwho]

I agree with you regarding tips to some extent. As someone else pointed out, these days there are these "tip cups" everywhere. I even see them in SubWay. Now, sometimes I do throw in a dollar - and I find that this helps my service when I return. However, overall, these tip jars are presumptuous.

But your argument about lower-paying job is egregiously flawed. I worked in restaurants in high school and college (to pay for my schooling). As a busboy and then a waiter, my pay (from the restaurant) was VERY low. I might make a scant $1.25/hour as a waiter (this was in the 80's). Why so low? Because the restaurant figured with my tips, I would easily be at minimum wage or better. I've seen this at many restaurants as well.

There might be some restaurants who do pay a far higher base salary, but again, even they calculate your overall salary to be much higher due to tips.

So to not tip your waiter/waitress because you figure they are making enough from the restaurant is flat-out wrong. The restaurant doesn't pay a lot because the restaurant ownders know the wait-staff rely mostly on tips for their pay.

Also, if you ever want decent service, not tipping is not the way to get it. If you didn't tip me once, I might forgive you. But if you came back and didn't tip, you wouldn't get good service ever again. You could complain all you want, but as far as I was concerned, the restaurant was better off without your patronship. Is this presumptuous of me? Yes, but I found that most people who don't tip (or tip poorly) are also inconsiderate in other areas. For example, they tie up a table for hours (preventing turnover, a key to both the wait-staff's and a restaurant's success) and/or they order very low-priced items. In other words, the restaurant loses money serving them.

So, if you decide not to tip at a SubWay, that's excusable. By law, Subway must pay minimum wage, if not more, to their employees. These employees do not rely on tips. If they get some, great, but they don't count on them as their pay. In contrast, most wait-people do count on tips, VERY much so. For you not to tip is like asking them to essentially work for free.

Could these wait-people get another job? Yes, but I would argue that you could get another job that pays you more so as well. And that extra money you earn could be used to tip better!


*edited typo

[This message has been edited by doctorwho (edited 05-15-2002).]

[Angela Harlem]

Thanks for the reply Dr Who. One thing I would like to add, your words are all very true, but I really think the problem here with restaurants in particular, is that THEY dont pay anywhere near a suitable wage for so many of their staff. Hotels can be the same.
The whole concept of tipping to me is way out. In an ideal world, the wages of that person serving you should be enough. Then on top of that, as a thankyou for good service, the patron gives a tip. We now live in a society where tipping is so customary that it is expected, and the big winners are those who avoid paying a good and decent wage to those who do quite hard work, simply because they are resting on the notion that the patron will pay extra NOT to tip for great service, but as a pay supplement. I see something very wrong with this. The losers are the patrons who are guilted into paying an extra sum and the staff who HAVE to rely on them to make ends meet. Why these industries aren't more tightly regulated is beyond me. It really is. It should be (and maybe is...?) downright illegal to have a base rate as low as a few measly dollars an hour. A few people here have mentioned how nowadays it is factored into the award. What the?

So what do we tip for? It sounds to me like it isn't really for good service a lot of the time.

v. tipped, tip·ping, tips
v. tr.

a. To give a tip to: tipped the waiter generously.
b. To give as a tip: He tipped a dollar and felt that it was enough.

[Not George Lucas]

I tip my waiters 20%, and here's why:

Waiters make shit for money, less than minimum wage, and they depend on their tips. They also have to endure long, weird hours and countless thankless customers who work them to death and show no gratuity. I have worked in food service, and I know exactly what this is like, so I treat them as I would be treated. Generally, waiters will remember a good tipper and give good service the next time they serve that person. Sometimes, when the waiter sucks, and I mean really sucks, I will tip 2 cents, but that's only happened two or three times in my life.

------------------

Truth is offensive.
I'm morally opposed to rape, and I would never rape anyone, but I think, ultimately, it's up to the rapist and no one else.

[The Wanderer]

I usually tip about %20, for similar reasons to those just mentioned by Not George Lucas

[gvox]

I just want to thank everyone especially the posters who have or do work in that industry for helping me understand the real deal here...as they say "when in Rome.."

I think I can find a way to make sure that the tip is balanced and fair everytime.

Good topic BTW!

[WildHoneyAlways]

I have been waiting tables for about three years now. I think everyone should be forced to wait tables one time in their lives to experience how awful it can be. I make $3.09 an hour and let me tell you, my paychecks don't help pay my rent/school/bills; my tips do. For the people out there in the US who don't want to tip, don't go out to eat because believe it or not by not tipping you are costing your server money. Most places I know of have some sort of tip out for bus boys or other non minimum wage workers. I still have to pay them a percentage of my sales whether or not I get tipped well.
I have also never had a more degrading job. When people snap there fingers at me for something I want to choke them. When men call me "honey" "sweetie" or "babe" I want to puke. It is a difficult job, it's really hard to smile and be nice to people who are treating you like shit just so you can get a tip out of them. I work in a nice steakhouse, businessmen as well as yokels have treated me badly. I'm a very competent person at a good university, I'm a capable and good server. I deserve 15%. if you leave me a penny you can bet your ass I will chase you down, give it back to you and ask you not to return.
Oh, and if you are at a place that has free refills on pop or whatever, do not suck down your drink before your server can finish passing out the rest. It's rude. Say thank you when you are given endless refills. It will really make someone's day.
I could go on for days about this but I have to stop myself.

My point is, if you are going out to dinner in the US think of the tip as part of the price of the meal before you even leave your home. If you don't want to tip, don't go out to eat. Serve yourself at home.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways:

My point is, if you are going out to dinner in the US think of the tip as part of the price of the meal before you even leave your home. If you don't want to tip, don't go out to eat. Serve yourself at home.

True, but as a perosn who also used to wait tables, you don't think people should tip if given purposefully bad service, do you?

[WildHoneyAlways]

True, but as a perosn who also used to wait tables, you don't think people should tip if given purposefully bad service, do you?

I have never given anyone purposefully bad service. Where I work you would be fired for that. Sometimes you may get not the greatest service but it may be not your server's fault. ie. getting triple sat or having 20 seperate checks to deal with while you have other tables.
If I was given bad service on purpose I'd complain to the person in charge. However, I wouldn't be looking to get anything for free b/c I'm not like that. I'd probably just leave a bad tip, rather than no tip. I think just a few cents is much more insulting than no tip at all.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways:
I have never given anyone purposefully bad service. Where I work you would be fired for that. Sometimes you may get not the greatest service but it may be not your server's fault. ie. getting triple sat or having 20 seperate checks to deal with while you have other tables.
If I was given bad service on purpose I'd complain to the person in charge. However, I wouldn't be looking to get anything for free b/c I'm not like that. I'd probably just leave a bad tip, rather than no tip. I think just a few cents is much more insulting than no tip at all.

No, I figured from the way you described yourself that you don't give purposefully bad service. I was really asking what you would do if you were given purposefully bad service at another restaraunt.
I agree with you that a few cents tip sends a more powerful message, because then they know for sure you didn't forget to leave a tip - they know you weren't pleased with the service.

[KhanadaRhodes]

i'm glad all us fellow americans realise waiters make shitty money without tips (and i know it's different in other countries so i can understand why other people don't tip as much or anything.)

today i was at this local restaurant i regular. they, in addition to serving those who eat in and take out, they deliver and cater. well, it's been flooding here all day today so of course people wanted lunch delivered. why go out if you don't have to?

i had to drop my husband off to work so i didn't care, i met my mom there, it was right across the street and i love the food there. 14 people at one place got food delivered, and it came out to about $150, after tax. since their policy is to add 15% gratuity to deliveries over $100, she told them when the order was placed. no problem. when the delivery guy got there (who btw makes the salary of a waiter since he technically is one, he doesn't get $6-8/hr like a pizza hut delivery guy) the same lady refused to pay the gratuity. after some arguing with the girl who took the order, she still refused. he had to drive 15 minutes in flooding water, which i know cuz my mom works out there and it took her half an hour to get back to work cuz the road was all flooded. anyway, he drove all that way and made about 50-75 cents, which would be his salary.

people are so fucking cheap it makes me sick. dividing the tip among the 14 people came out to $1.30 per person. is a person really that hard up to not afford it? no, they're just cheap. a friend of my mom's never leaves tips, so my mom now refuses to eat out with her, cuz leaving $2 (my mom's share of the tip) looks cheap, so she got tired of covering her share too.

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Just wonmdering what everyone thinks of this, as we are fairly spread out over the globe here and I know there are some folks who work in service industries who may be able to give interesting replies.

I personally never do it on request, and only in very select circumstances. Call me Scrooge if you like, I'm happy with it. My reasons are for not doing it though are that these people, waiters, hotel staff cab drivers etc, are doing their job. End of story. There are a few types of jobs here where tipping is customary, not required, and althought they may be plain and simple customer service, or lower paying jobs, this makes little difference to me for 2 reasons. There are plenty of lower paying jobs around that do not desire a tip. And also there are many service type industries as well as these that do not require it. So why for a few and not others? To tip anyone who gives us good service is in the long run an almighty expensive exercise. I personally can not see it having the flow on effect of lower prices for services, or an increase in customer service levels.
This not to say I dont appreciate good service, I do. I will tip, but not without saying a very sincere thanks for the service 1st. I've heard it basically the practice in places like America where a tip is actually added on to the end of a bill.

I agree with you. Over the years I have seen tipping get out of hand. It used to be just waitresses and waiters, and that was expected. I have no problem with tipping the server, I always have, and the amount will depend on the service. Then it extended to the paper boy, well that's okay once a year at the holidays. Then the hairstylist. Well a little if your hair isn't ruined. I am not rich so I never had contact with bellboys and doormen, but I think they were always tipped too.

But, then it started to get extreme. About 8 years ago, I was staying in a hotel and found the tip envelope there from the lady who cleaned the room. I had never heard of such a thing. Then I went to the front desk and asked if they had one of those little courtesy bottles of shampoo because I had forgotten mine. The guy goes, "well the construction workers usually give me a little something extra for this" and I couldn't believe it. Then it spread to the pizza delivery person. Damn, I'm paying so much for this pizza anyway, and one of the reasons I'm eating at home is to save money on the tip I'd have to give at the resturant! Grrr! If I don't tip him I'm afraid next time he'll spit in my pizza. Might as well go pick it up myself. The gas is cheaper! Eating at the pizza place, I tip the waitress, but then when I go to check out, there's a tip jar for the cook too! Sometimes I have actually gotten ice water instead of drinks to save money for the inevitable tip.

What I saw last summer took the cake. I was at a Dairy Queen in North Carolina and saw a 'tips' box on the counter! I could have screamed! All they do is ring you up and make your ice cream cone. I know it's a shitty job and they work hard and need more money and should be payed more, but dammit it's their JOB to do that! There is no reason to tip them for doing their normal job activities, so it was more like a shameless begging cup! They are not going out of their way to give you extra service, such as coming to your table, taking your dishes and refilling your drink. They only rang you up and handed you your stuff. That's what they get paid to do, and they knew that when they were hired.

Since then it has gotten worse. I have seen these 'begging cups' at the Chinese takeout, the pizza takeout and even gas stations/convenience stores! I just think it's getting ridiculous. EVERYONE has their hand out these days it seems. Now like I said of course they work hard, need more to live and deserve more, but it should not be up to me to subsidize a salary so the owner of the place can rake in the profits by paying his people peanuts for hard work. If he/she paid the employees a salary they could live on, they wouldn't need tip jars. But then of course they'd just run the prices up to make up their 'loss.' But consider too me, and maybe some of you, are struggling to get by just like those workers, and asking for more than the already too high price only sets us back more and takes an extra bite out of our pockets.

In summary, yes for waitresses, maybe some other things if there has been extraordinary service or special help. I'll give it on my own, out of generosity and appreciation, but I want it to be my idea. Don't come sticking your begging cup or envelope on the counter.

*Just one more comment, about an unfairness in tipping: I know a guy who waited tables at a seafood house. All the tips were dumped into the same jar and at the end of the night they were split evenly between all workers. I think this is unfair, because some go out of their way to give better service and deserve the tips left for THEM for what they did. One night the guy had been really nice to an elderly couple and they tipped him $50 on a meal that only cost $20. He stuffed it in his pocket instead of putting in the community jar. I don't blame him.



[This message has been edited by *Stormy* (edited 05-19-2002).]

[WildHoneyAlways]

Originally posted by *Stormy*:
Then the hairstylist. Well a little if your hair isn't ruined.

A lot of salons now days do not pay stylist by the hour, only by appointments. The owner of the salon takes a chunk of the money and the stylist gets whatever is left. I always try to find these things out so I know how to tip. I believe you get what you pay for. If I get a great hair cut and color then I make sure to tip well.

I tip people for services I can/won't do myself. For instance, I am going to tip the bell boy for dragging all my luggage from the car up to my room.

The hair lady I go to owns her own shop and makes all the rules. If she does good, I tip her, but once she messed up my kid's hair so I didn't. The reason I really hate to see tips at over the counter places like Dairy Queen and Subway is that a lot of times I wil choose a place like that over a sit-down and be served resturant so I won't have to add to my expense leaving a tip, and if they expect one same as a place that actually comes to the table and serves you, well you might as well just go there. I have actually discussed that with people, someone would ask, where do you want to eat, and we'd consider the price and whether or not you'd have to leave a tip before choosing a place. I am discourged from going back to fast food places that have tip jars. I don't think they deserve a tip just for ringing you up, and I don't want to make them mad by ignoring it so I just don't go, and they have lost my business. I also think table cleaners at all you can eat, self serve buffets who don't serve you but only take the dirty plates away do not deserve as much as someone who brings you the food and refills your drinks. If I were rich, I'd always tip everyone big just to be nice, and because I felt sorry for them because I've been there. But I'm not, so I can't. Life sucks sometimes, and it's a damn shame the people who work hardest get paid the least. But I am in that position too and I can't afford to subsidize other people's salaries because the rich business owner is too tight and greedy.

Just to emphasize one more time in case someone didn't read my first post, I DO think all waiters and waitresses should be tipped according to service, and I do, but when the practice branches out to include everyone from hotel housekeepers to counter clerks, it's gone too far. If it continues, and people go along with it, I believe it will have a negative effect on the economy as employers might pay employees less thinking they can make up the rest from the customers, who already pay enough and shouldn't be expected to take on the extra burden. So the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. If I pay $55 for a night at the Comfort Inn, that is for a clean room for the night, and all the things involved in the upkeep of the room should be included in that price. They use that money to pay expenses and pay employees to keep the room in good condition. You shouldn't have to cough up extra to everyone who did everything.

[Angela Harlem]

Tipping should always be a gratuity. Always. End of story. After reading through all the replies here, it is patently clear that there is a problem with the awards in America. I know dont know the cost of living in the US, but even without being able to make a comparison, if it were a similar situation here it is surely close to slave labour.

I went to dinner tonight at Star City Casino. Its a big assed gambling place in Sydney. Huge turnovers, absolutely huge for Aus standards. We left a tip. The service was without fault, and the food was very nice. Just those typical arty type serves where you have a massive platter sized plate, a lump of meat in the middle and drizzlings of some weird sauce around the outside with a limp piece of seaweed on the top. Looked pretty. But we had 3 waiters. We left about 15%. Not to boost up their incomes, the cost of our meal paid that. It was a gratuity. Sad that it isnt the case in many parts of the world.

[Discoteque]

I usually tip, but it depends on the situation I'm in. For great service at a dinner, a great haircut, etc., sure, I'll up the tip a little more. But it rubs me the wrong way when tipping is out-and-out expected, and if you don't tip (or tip enough) you're considered a jerk or a heathen. I used to live with 2 former waitresses and it used to drive me NUTS because they would tip other wait persons exorbitantly simply because they were wait staff, not because of good (or bad) service. They said that 15% was NEVER enough - 20% should be the norm. Their excuse was: "This is the only way they make their money, cos their hourly wages are so low." Which I felt didn't make it right, either. They would regale me with stories of wait staff who would bend over backwards for their customers, only to get a bit of change for a tip...making them mad enough to *hurl it* across the room, or even at the offending customers as they walked out of the restaurant saying, "you obviously need this more than I do!" (like that would make customers want to come back to the restaurant??)

Since there are no hard and fast rules for tipping, people are never sure what to tip. I think tipping should be for a job well done, it shouldn't always be part of the package.

[zoomerang II]

I always wonder if the food is that good, shouldn't it be the chef who gets a tip and not the waiter? I guess that is the point of a service sharge.

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by zoomerang II:
I always wonder if the food is that good, shouldn't it be the chef who gets a tip and not the waiter? I guess that is the point of a service sharge.

The chef is already well-paid, especially at fine restaurants.