Those oh so crazy monkeys!

[Lilly]

Ahhh yes, it's time to start that ever so burning discussion of evolution. Well, I'm not even sure if this belongs here, but I was just wondering if you all believe in evolution. And if you do, do you feel it enfringes on your religion? This is more of a survey kind of thing. See, we're talking about all of the proof of evolution (really, it's fact, not theory anymore) in my advanced placement biology course. The thing is, whenever we talk about it as fact, an individual in my class gets quite upset and says she flat out doesn't believe in any of it. But with all of the scientific evidence, carbon dating of skulls that show the progression of hominids to humans for example, how can you not believe it? Is it more of a pushing the facts aside to for lack of a better term stay religious? Or is it really a "I don't believe in all of this because I believe God created it all as it is now millions of billions of years ago."? Sorry if this is sort of rant-induced, but it makes it hard to have scientific conversations because she just doesn't believe in so much of it (big bang, evolution, etc). Does science enfringe on religion? (oohh, that's a better question) So there it is.

-lil

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It's the puppets that pull the strings.

*You're very kind. Most people laugh when they see my googly eye.*

+fabulous+

The Edge, it's a direct object.

 

[zoomerang II]

Im a geologist who beliwves that the earth is about 5 billion years old. I don't find any conflict with scientific facts or theories with what I would term my own "faith".

Science in my opinion tends to ask more questions about the overall scheme of things than it answers.

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In the stillness of the evening
When the sun has had its day
I heard your voice whispering...

 

[80sU2isBest]

Lilly,
If you use carbon dating to back up the evolution theory, you're betting on something that's not all that reliable.
Carbon dating is known to have had many problems. Read this, as a basic examination of carbon dating, and some of its inherent problems.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/Geek/geek991111.html




[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 02-11-2002).]

 

[sulawesigirl4]

[This message has been edited by sulawesigirl4 (edited 02-12-2002).]

 

[Lemonite]

I'm short on time, so I'll drop in on this very quickly, but Here's my take on things, it ends up holding water both in faith and science...

Evolution is a program.. Something God created, and it ended up resulting in the creation of man and the world we have now, but it was just a very long program a 4 billion or what odd year long one.

I'll probably come back to elaborate later, but that's it for now...

L.Unplugged

 

[melon]

Well, it was bound to happen someday. Lemonite and I actually agree on something!

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[Achtung Bubba]

The lovefest continues...

I agree with Lemonite and melon.

Actually, I'm willing to say that evolution is probably true, given the evidence. But I contend that it ultimately doesn't matter. What matters is that God created everything, not how - or how closely reality follows a literal translation of Genesis.

To me, the idea that God created the universe through natural processes that He designed (by first and foremost creating the laws those processes follow) is very ascetically pleasing. Rather than viewing God as a being that moved around each atom, I can thus view God as one who set up the dominoes, defined the laws like gravity, and let such laws take over.

But if I'm wrong, if Genesis is litterally true, or if the truth is something we cannot yet imagine, I'm not bothered - nor SHOULD I be. It's God's handiwork, and that's good enough for me.

 

[theSoulfulMofo]

(I really really wanted to post that one Interference POPMART wallpaper with the blue-outline cartoon of a monkey evolving into a satisfied cart shopper... but it's not available on this current Interference website)

[This message has been edited by theSoulfulMofo (edited 02-12-2002).]

 

[theSoulfulMofo]

Originally posted by melon:
Well, it was bound to happen someday. Lemonite and I actually agree on something!

Melon

Seems to me that Melon's been agreeing with quite a few members lately.

What have you done to the real Melon?

 

[80sU2isBest]

http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp

 

[melon]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp

My issues with this link:

1) Evolution, by definition, cannot be observed! Considering that the process takes millions of years, no one will ever be able to observe it.

2) #2 reeks of pseudoscience. It reminds me of the so-called "light particle" theory in dismissing carbon-dating. A huge article written seemingly scientific, but it conveniently omitted that light has nothing to do with carbon-dating. But it was a nice excuse to state that the world is only 10,000 years old.

However, I am not a scientist, so if someone more qualified can discuss #2, we'll be in business.

3) Well, I don't know what people expect when they see "transitional." Some half-dinosaur/half-bird? Oh wait...

4) The author might as well just eliminated all of his other objections and went to this, because this is what he really objects to. However, the fallacy assumes that evolutionists automatically are atheist. I don't believe that life suddenly popped up, but that God was the one who sparked this evolutionary process. Perhaps that is faith again, but, my point is that not all those who believe in evolution negate the importance of God in the process. Darwin was a scientist, not a clergy man. Leave the religious aspect to the world religions.

5) Well, duh. That was a given. Creationism is also a theory, and one with absolutely no credible scientific evidence. Evolution does have holes in it, that I will agree. But the difference between creationism and evolution is that there is movement for change within evolution--it is not a religion--while creationism is static and monolithic, regardless of the evidence. In fact, it wouldn't even be an issue had it not been written in the Bible.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[Klodomir]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
The lovefest continues...

I agree with Lemonite and melon.

Guys, wanna join me in a snowball fight in the place formerly known as Very Hot Indeed?

 

[melon]

Originally posted by theSoulfulMofo:
Seems to me that Melon's been agreeing with quite a few members lately.

LOL...I know that many like to paint me as the archetypical liberal, but I do have quite a few beliefs that certainly sit in the middle and a couple beliefs that sit in the right.

That's why I hate partisan arguments. I'd rather talk about the issues over the politicians behind them. Often times, much of my argument centers around the fact that I question the sincerity of the Republican Party on some of their issues or if they are just using an issue (i.e., abortion) as a way to garner votes, while having no intention of ever changing anything. Hence, I find it more enjoyable talking about issues, as fashioned in this thread.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by melon:
I do have quite a few beliefs that certainly sit in the middle and a couple beliefs that sit in the right.

>>Remembers the whole "then you're in the worng ideology" debate...

 

[Klodomir]

Touch?, Bama! [no smileys for you, matey]

 

[melon]

Originally posted by U2Bama:
>>Remembers the whole "then you're in the worng ideology" debate...

I meant to say "party" and you damn well know that. I even mentioned it in the topic.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

 

[U2Bama]

Okay; I'll be a "revisionist:"

>>Remembers the whole "you're in the wrong party" debate...

As the Beastie Boys said, "You've gotta fight for your right to party."

~U2Alabama