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Old 07-08-2002, 01:48 PM   #21
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Even if I have to admit the article of amnesty seems well written.

I neither knew that Europe and the U.S. had the same practices... puh! One time I am happy to be so lucky to live at this time and place. Another interesting vision is the one of hospitals, where it is said that only the very rich can afford to use a hospital for this procedure. Now what if Africa had enough hospitals? Not one on so and so many millions of people, but the same like in Europe. Would the system be opened to changes?

The article makes many good points, and tries to avoid accusations, which is fine. The only thing about it which I donīt like is the part about psychological effects... because it is clear a procedure like that affects your mind, isnīt it? - but Africa has absolutely nothing to do with Freud or psychoanalysis. So the effects may be true, but they seem to be watched through the wrong glasses.
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:55 PM   #22
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Also true, Oliveu2, just because it is the Elders tradition doesnīt make it right. But right for who?
I don't believe that just because a culture does it deems it right or acceptable. Call me narrowminded or whatever but I believe in human rights "the right to live like a human" as someone once said, and I believe that no one should suffer that mutilation if they do not want to or are not informed about its ramifications. People can think or believe what they want- but if it's harmful to others thats where the line needs to be drawn.

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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
But with whose power? They have to change it if they want to, not us, because we are so liberal or democratic or freedom loving. They have to change it, so that they get independency. More to stand on their own feet. But - also! - be careful with this, the unit "family" in african perception is a totally different one from first world perception of the same word.
I agree the change needs to come from within- but sometimes they need help. Just as the homeless need a hand willing to show them the way or the AIDS victims in Africa need outside people willing to give money or medications, they need others to help inform them so they can make their own minds up, be medicated or whatever they need.

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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
I think those poor women should only somehow be assured that they have a free choice. But I would like if we would concentrate more on fighting hunger and AIDS. So many people die of hunger.
I know I change the theme now, just let me say, we canīt imagine how it is to be hungry. People in India or Africa can. I mean, shouldnīt we try to not eat anything for at least a week, and then see what we are able to discuss about with our oh-so-free-minds? We are so openminded because we can afford it.
I never said to not focus on the other stuff. but just because the red cross is needed in NY doesn't mean they shouldn't come to a victim's aid in rural Ohio, if you follow what I'm saying.

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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
So - sorry, but I donīt click your links. First, because I can imagine clearly enough without seeing, second because I think the Internet is not a first hand selective information system for this theme.
Well that's okay but there are no images at the last link I provided. I put a warning about the graphic nature because an account is given about a ten year old girl who is genitally mutilated and it is quite graphic in its content (for example I was being generous saying most procedures were done with a razor blade!)

And that was taken from Amnesty International. I'm sorry but do you honestly think the only way people can understand this is to see it "first hand" meaning go to these countries??? We need to rely on other sources like Amnesty, like CNN, or whatever news show one may watch, because it is impossible for us to see "first hand" all of the world and all of the problems.

Besides, if I went to some of those countries as a woman I'm sure I would be harrassed or worse. Proof of that is the newscaster for CNN who cut her hair while going to Afghanastan to look more like a man.
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Old 07-08-2002, 02:05 PM   #24
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Oops didn't see this while I was writing my last reply.

Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Even if I have to admit the article of amnesty seems well written.

I neither knew that Europe and the U.S. had the same practices... puh! One time I am happy to be so lucky to live at this time and place. Another interesting vision is the one of hospitals, where it is said that only the very rich can afford to use a hospital for this procedure. Now what if Africa had enough hospitals? Not one on so and so many millions of people, but the same like in Europe. Would the system be opened to changes?

The article makes many good points, and tries to avoid accusations, which is fine. The only thing about it which I donīt like is the part about psychological effects... because it is clear a procedure like that affects your mind, isnīt it? - but Africa has absolutely nothing to do with Freud or psychoanalysis. So the effects may be true, but they seem to be watched through the wrong glasses.
Yes hospitals would help, most likely avoiding the death and infections that occur from this thing, but I still do not think it should be forced upon girls. (not saying you think this)

I think the reason they include the psychological effects is because to show in how many ways it negatively affects women who suffer this. I dont think they mean in a freudian way, either, but more of the "terror, humiliation and betrayl" women feel and how these acts result in women becoming more subservient than men- which I think is the reason this is still going on anyway.
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:02 PM   #25
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Ok, olive, again, good contributions. You make me think, fine.

The only difference is our thoughts about information: I can understand you, because you like to watch/ read/ be educated/ learn from every source you can. Continue like this, get it all!
I was like you, but I am not like that anymore, you know.

I have so many possibilities to get information that I pick out what seems best to me. And CNN seems shitty to me, sorry, because I am not interested in the most up to date but heavily manipulated information, but in the most realistic (sure, in my point of view...)

Plus, to see how information is manipulated (WATCH MORE TV !!!, Bono I love your cynicism) makes me sick and takes away positive power that I need (to post here, for example - itīs plus two hours that I am sitting at my work unpaid).

So I try to go to universties to get information, f.e. about what books I could read, what the position of different profs is (that had years to think about this and to make up their opinion), and I am also critical about infos I get there.

If you canīt afford to go to another continent (in reality I think you can, and you donīt have to be that fearful in Africa, compared to Afghanistan, where I would neither go as a man - ), well maybe one time you will be able to afford.

I do hope so for you, because it might give you, one more time, a totally different perception of how life can be lived, too (not by us maybe, but it is very very interesting - and I am not speaking of the points discussed above).
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:31 PM   #26
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fair play to you too hiphop, I think we both make each other think.

Sorry I mentioned CNN- I meant CNN to represent any sort of information medium, like newspapers, or whatever, and figured CNN would be the most universal one. (To be honest, I agree w/ you about them..)

Quote:
Plus, to see how information is manipulated (WATCH MORE TV !!!, Bono I love your cynicism) makes me sick and takes away positive power that I need (to post here, for example - itīs plus two hours that I am sitting at my work unpaid).
yes.. yes, yes. I took a media class in college about this- how the news leaves us feeling powerless, etc. amazing thing, that TV..

I hope one day I can see first hand too. I totally respect their cultures and hope that wasn't misunderstood. I think how they live is amazing and admirable. Just some practices I do not agree with- everyone deserves a fair shake at the best this world can offer them and sometimes certain cultures prevent people from achieving that. Even if I met women who suffered this and lived now after undergoing that procedure, I still would not condone it. However, I think like you said, I would see it a little differently perhaps.

Imagine taking a college trip to Africa or India rather than Montreal huh? Imagine the type of revolutionary thinking that would come from college students exposed to that world rather than the instant-gratification, intoxicated and cliched spring break world.
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:36 PM   #27
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olive, let me pre-invite you to feel free to come visit me wherever it is I end up serving in the Peace Corps. Should be a good slice of real life in a place you might not otherwise get to see.
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:46 PM   #28
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ahh.. the moment of truth

Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
olive, let me pre-invite you to feel free to come visit me wherever it is I end up serving in the Peace Corps. Should be a good slice of real life in a place you might not otherwise get to see.
you're allowed to have visitors?

..maybe I will start saving. as well as preparing my mother. She gets nervous when I leave the state.
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:52 PM   #29
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Re: ahh.. the moment of truth

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


you're allowed to have visitors?

..maybe I will start saving. as well as preparing my mother. She gets nervous when I leave the state.
yep. Indeed, they encourage it. All about getting Americans out to see the world around them and such. (yeah, best start working your mom into the idea very slowly. lol)
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Old 07-08-2002, 05:53 PM   #30
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I can't agree at all, ever, for any reason, with FGM. You are not telling me that any woman in her right mind under any circumstances would agree with it.

Maybe this seems extreme or intolerant or whatever, but it's a practice that needs to be stopped. Period. It is barbaric, painful, unnecessary, and has the potential to kill a woman. There is no male equivalent--or if there is, then I'm willing to bet that there are no men going, "But if they want to have half of their penis cut off and sewn up, well, that's their choice!"

No. No way. No woman should have to have her sexual organs removed and altered in such an unnatural way.

And you will not convince me otherwise.
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

I know I change the theme now, just let me say, we canīt imagine how it is to be hungry. People in India or Africa can. I mean, shouldnīt we try to not eat anything for at least a week, and then see what we are able to discuss about with our oh-so-free-minds? We are so openminded because we can afford it.

Um. PLEASE be careful what you say.
You dont think there is hunger in North America or Europe? Come on now, you know better.
I myself have gone 3 weeks without food and 5,almost 6 days without water due to illness(i couldnt afford a DR), and I have gone days without food nearly every month over the last year and a half or more.
I havent had to go without food since early February, but this month I may have to resort to eating little or nothing once again. I am not alone. It happens more often than you'd think in this country.
I've seen death from starvation.
***********************************

Anyway, as for the crimes commited against women in other countries, there are some things that are just universally wrong. I dont care whose culture it is. When you inflict severe suffering on innocent individuals, its wrong. You cant justify it by saying "Oh, its their culture, we dont understand." There is no justifying pain and suffering.
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Old 07-08-2002, 10:18 PM   #32
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You cant justify it by saying "Oh, its their culture, we dont understand."
Damn straight.
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Old 07-09-2002, 01:24 AM   #33
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My post about African females who want to do it was not an act of condoning it.

Btw, the last "corrective surgery" done in Europe was as recent as the 1940s.

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Old 07-09-2002, 02:01 AM   #34
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i'm speechless again........
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Old 07-09-2002, 06:52 AM   #35
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Cool, oliveu2!

Yes, Miss Mac Phisto, you are right, I was generalizing. My mistake; Iīve seen a friend dying from hunger here, too.

How did you feel at this time? Were you able to think clearly?
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Old 07-10-2002, 10:13 PM   #36
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Normal

Not when I was sick. That time, all i could think about was whether or not I was gonna die, when would I start to feel better,etc.
Othertimes,yes for the most part, but i wouldnt be able to concentrate on any kind of test or anything that required real focus. My mind strayed too much.
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Old 07-10-2002, 10:27 PM   #37
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hmmm...the phrase "red hot poker" popped into my head when I decided that I agreed with you, Sula. But it's not completely the men - it's the inane and hurtful "traditions", rituals and social taboos and some people/countries inflict upon themselves.

But I do agree that it's the men who uphold these traditions and make the rules because it gives them the upper hand. I thank God I'm in the U.S. where, though we may not be "equal" in reality with men here on many accounts, at least we can live our lives without fear of possibly doing something accidentally that will cause "shame" and embarrassement for our family, and where people (even our own family members) have the right to rape us, burn us, torture us, throw acid in our faces or kill us, purely out of spite or a misguided sense of "honor." It sickens me, and my heart bleeds for women in such countries....


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why oh why must women suffer for "crimes" that aren't crimes and which they didn't committ? men can be such animals. Castration wouldn't be good enough punishment.
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:11 AM   #38
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I've given the genital mutilation thing some thought, and really, do you think it is any more different than your country telling its soldiers that it is honourable to kill others for their nation? Similarly, these women are told from young that it is honourable to stitch up their vaginas.

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Old 07-11-2002, 03:57 PM   #39
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I've given the genital mutilation thing some thought, and really, do you think it is any more different than your country telling its soldiers that it is honourable to kill others for their nation? Similarly, these women are told from young that it is honourable to stitch up their vaginas.

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Yes. Those soldiers have the choice to take the measures they feel is necessary to defend their country. They can choose NOT to. They understand the consequences of BOTH sides of the issue.

These women are not given that choice, Foray. They are not doing it in "honor" or even told it is honorable. They are told that they cannot have babies unless they are mutilated. As we all KNOW, that is a blatant lie. They say a man will not want them- they are not told a man would prefer it (thereby giving them a choice: do I want to mutilate myself for a man or shall I risk never getting a man. Even though the choice is jaded the fact is they never GET that choice.)

Many women bleed to death, even more can never again feel pleasure from sex. Do you know ANY guy who would put up with that? I don't think so.

Soliders may hurt others and risk their own lives for their beliefs. These women hurt no one but themselves and risk their own lives, for OTHER people's beliefs that are forced upon them. I don't see how the two subjects are even relatable. Have you read the links? Have you read any of the stories?

People supporting this make me really wonder how women are TRULY viewed.

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Old 07-12-2002, 02:59 AM   #40
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In times of war, men are drafted (as opposed to enlisted which involves volunteering) into the army.

I did not read the links as I have read many stories already. Furthermore, I am not supporting this, merely wondering out loud.

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