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Old 07-21-2007, 11:03 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

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Originally posted by maycocksean


And can I just say that I find it really frustrating, the implication here that people like Bakker are taking this stand because "they don't care about sin."

It should be quite clear from Bakker's interview that his stand is NOT based on lackadaisical view of sin. . .He's taken the stand he has because to take any other stand, in his view, WOULD be sin. It would be wrong and he cannot violate his conscience, what he believes God is telling him to do.

Now you can argue that he's mistaken and maybe he is (and maybe he isn't). But lets not have this pablum about not telling the truth about sin.
You took the words right out of my mouth; just in a more eloquent yet simple way.
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:14 PM   #22
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A while ago I began to believe that the entire notion of sin is kind of nonsensical to me. Don't believe in it, and don't believe in hell either.
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:22 PM   #23
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Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

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Originally posted by the iron horse


Jaime's mistake, in my view, is not reaching out and loving homosexuals, but not telling the truth about sin.

Homosexuality is clearly defined, in my reading and understanding, as a sin according to the scriptures.

I realize that many here will disagree andI hope this thread does not dissolve into a debate on homosexuality. I'm just stating my belief, not trying to convince anyone.


and your little rebel from Nazareth would be *embarassed* at your misreading and misrepresentation of the Bible.

after all, Jesus had so much to say about gay people.

so i'll say it point blank: your belief is a misformulation based upon centuries of prejudice, and within my lifetime, you'll be backing away from such assertions in the same way that Christians now back away from long-ago beliefs about the Bible supporting slavery and opposing interracial marriage. so, my advice is to get it over with and repent and apologize and understand that the "biblical" view on a 100% natural sexual orientation that (shock! horror!) might be different from your own is not sinful, is not shameful, the Bible -- which, for goodness sakes, warns against mixing different strands of fabrics -- says *nothing* about any sort of contemporary understanding of a gay identity and a gay relationship, and that gay people are no more moral or immoral than straight people.

i'm trying to help you out. trust me, you'll thank me for this.

oh, RIP Tammy Faye.
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
A while ago I began to believe that the entire notion of sin is kind of nonsensical to me. Don't believe in it, and don't believe in hell either.
Same here really. I can't shake the feeling that the notions of sin and hell are 'concocted' solely to give credence to the need for a saviour. I find it difficult to see them as anything else than fine pieces of marketing.
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:59 AM   #25
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"sin" is how the powerful keep the powerless in line.
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
"sin" is how the powerful keep the powerless in line.
Yeah, moving on...

The only way you could "misinterpret" the Bible's view of homosexuality is if you're illiterate. Honestly, it's right in there. People's fear of admitting what is in there is part of our conditioning by the media and society in general to compromise our beliefs if they're too radical or just not PC enough. My Bible says to love thy neighbor, even if they're gay. Guess what, that means I'm supposed to love them enough to tell them what the rest of the Bible says too, to keep them from burning in Hell. And honestly, don't get mad at me for saying that; I'm not the one who wrote the Bible. "Love" is too often misinterpreted as being nice or kissing ass, but, according to Jesus himself, the greatest love is laying down your life for your friends (John 15:13), which sometimes involves putting yourself in a position to be called a hateful bastard, for the sake of telling them the truth.

Word up, bitches.
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:04 AM   #27
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^

You are kidding, aren't you?
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:07 AM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

and your little rebel from Nazareth would be *embarassed* at your misreading and misrepresentation of the Bible.

after all, Jesus had so much to say about gay people.

so i'll say it point blank: your belief is a misformulation based upon centuries of prejudice, and within my lifetime, you'll be backing away from such assertions in the same way that Christians now back away from long-ago beliefs about the Bible supporting slavery and opposing interracial marriage. so, my advice is to get it over with and repent and apologize and understand that the "biblical" view on a 100% natural sexual orientation that (shock! horror!) might be different from your own is not sinful, is not shameful, the Bible -- which, for goodness sakes, warns against mixing different strands of fabrics -- says *nothing* about any sort of contemporary understanding of a gay identity and a gay relationship, and that gay people are no more moral or immoral than straight people.
Ridiculous. Honestly, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Quote:
Matthew 5:17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
What does this mean to you?

THAT OLD TESTAMENT BOOK STILL APPLIES.

I don't make life decisions that God would not approve of simply because there's not an exact scripture that relates to my situation. There's a pretty broad HOMOSEXUALITY = BAD near the beginning of the book that, apparently, Jesus did not wish to argue with.

Your interpretation of the Bible is made through tinted glasses. I don't care if you think the whole thing is a damn fairytale, but please interpret it correctly so you don't mislead anyone. I have no idea why you're arguing in a Christian thread when you are not even a Christian anyway.
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:14 AM   #29
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hmm...I guess you aren't kidding. You're just wrong.

Kind of sad to see such ignorance in one so young.
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Old 07-22-2007, 03:00 AM   #30
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I'm appalled at some of these "christian" reactions...

You should be ashamed of yourselves...
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Old 07-22-2007, 03:48 AM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
I have no idea why you're arguing in a Christian thread when you are not even a Christian anyway.
wow... you really showed him a thing or two! way to prove your point

someone roll out another barrel of fish for this young man to shoot. maybe he can win a members only jacket for a prize
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Old 07-22-2007, 07:31 AM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon
Your interpretation of the Bible is made through tinted glasses. I don't care if you think the whole thing is a damn fairytale, but please interpret it correctly so you don't mislead anyone.
Irony. You just described your own interpretation.
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Old 07-22-2007, 07:41 AM   #33
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Ok, I actually teared up a little bit at a couple of things he said.

JB: I’ve seen churches split on the color of the paint on the walls. With me and Stu, we have a great love for each other and our love is bigger than one particular misunderstanding. I don’t think we can write someone off because they don’t see what I see or we haven’t gotten to the same place yet. Church splitting is ridiculous most of the time.

Especially here:
JB: It took me a long time to get there. I had a lot of gay friends and even had some congregation members who were gay, and I just wasn’t sure where I stood. In my heart, I was like, “How can I condemn these people for their love of one another?”

Thanks for posting this!
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Old 07-22-2007, 09:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


Yeah, moving on...

The only way you could "misinterpret" the Bible's view of homosexuality is if you're illiterate. Honestly, it's right in there. People's fear of admitting what is in there is part of our conditioning by the media and society in general to compromise our beliefs if they're too radical or just not PC enough. My Bible says to love thy neighbor, even if they're gay. Guess what, that means I'm supposed to love them enough to tell them what the rest of the Bible says too, to keep them from burning in Hell. And honestly, don't get mad at me for saying that; I'm not the one who wrote the Bible. "Love" is too often misinterpreted as being nice or kissing ass, but, according to Jesus himself, the greatest love is laying down your life for your friends (John 15:13), which sometimes involves putting yourself in a position to be called a hateful bastard, for the sake of telling them the truth.

Word up, bitches.




thanks for validating everything! feel good?

i'll see you in hell with all the other hateful bastards who wrap up their prejudices in the cloak of ecstatic righteousness in order to elevate themselves above other by whatever means are easiest.

being gay is not a sin. god made me gay.

and, no, i'm not a Christian, but that doesn't mean that actions and attitudes expressed by you don't harm my community. it's because of people like you that gay kids kill themselves. so i'm going to stand up and tell you to your face that not only are you terribly, embarssingly wrong -- and adds further evidence that, yes, the Bible is a collection of little stories that some wield in order to increase their sense of power and righteousness over others -- but that you're hurting people.

as for the Biblical stuff which, you're right, i personally don't give half a shit about, Ormus/Melon has argued in here in a manner far more scholarly than your grade school quoting -- "here's a fucking quote bitches! what does my decontextualized quote mean to you bitches! that's right bitches! i'm right bitches! you're going to burn in hell bitches!" -- and so, even if i gave half a shit about what the Bible says about me (even though it doesn't talk about gay people at all), i'd listen to an argument that has a modicum of intelligence, nuance, and historical context. the only thing i'll say is that there's nothing about being gay. nothing. show me where Jesus talks about loving relationships between members of the same gender.

it must be tough living in Maryland and not being able to eat shellfish. after all, you wouldn't want to burn in hell, would you?

so, here we are again. Christians embarassing themselves.

poor Jesus.
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Old 07-22-2007, 10:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Ok, I actually teared up a little bit at a couple of things he said.

JB: I’ve seen churches split on the color of the paint on the walls. With me and Stu, we have a great love for each other and our love is bigger than one particular misunderstanding. I don’t think we can write someone off because they don’t see what I see or we haven’t gotten to the same place yet. Church splitting is ridiculous most of the time.

Especially here:
JB: It took me a long time to get there. I had a lot of gay friends and even had some congregation members who were gay, and I just wasn’t sure where I stood. In my heart, I was like, “How can I condemn these people for their love of one another?”

Thanks for posting this!
You're welcome!! I'm glad you liked it!
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Old 07-22-2007, 10:32 AM   #36
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Alright, to get this thread mildly back on topic (yet still stay somewhere in this tangent we've wondered off on) I just wanted to post something I just heard in a podcast from one of Jaime's services(which meets in a bar; I think that's awesome!) Again, he's echoing so much I've been thinking for the past year. He was talking about all the issues Christians talk about as sin and he said

"Rather than saying this is an abomination of God, and this is that, you know I don't care anymore of what people think of sin and sinners anymore. Sometimes I just wanna say kiss my ass and shut the hell up. That's my flesh. That's me. I just wanna say get the hell outta my face, I don't wanna hear you anymore, I don't wanna think about it anymore, because God has them in His hands."-Jaime Bakker.
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:23 PM   #37
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"Word up bitches"? I assume that's with a captial "W"?
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:41 PM   #38
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Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse

but not telling the truth about sin.

Homosexuality is clearly defined, in my reading and understanding, as a sin according to the scriptures.

To you and LemonMelon, start here and then do some research before embarassing others:

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template...&ContentID=583
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Old 07-22-2007, 06:30 PM   #39
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Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


To you and LemonMelon, start here and then do some research before embarassing others:

http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template...&ContentID=583

Yes, thank you BonoVoxSupastar,

Doing our research from the Metropolitan Community Church site
should give us a fair and balanced view on the topic.

Would it be fair to suggest a topic should be researched from all points of view to help one form an opinion?
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Old 07-22-2007, 06:46 PM   #40
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This guy gives me hope for the future of true Christianity

Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
Would it be fair to suggest a topic should be researched from all points of view to help one form an opinion?


are all points of view equally supported by logic, fact, and reason?

or do we give all opinions equal weight regardless of how little they might employ logic, fact, and reason?
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