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Old 06-22-2003, 10:02 PM   #1
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They're not even trying to deny it anymore.

A newly released government report acknowledges abuses of 9/11-related detainees in federal detention centers:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/...ees/index.html
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Old 06-23-2003, 12:02 PM   #2
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yes, but what is your opinion on this?
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Old 06-23-2003, 12:14 PM   #3
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ummm, that it's flat-out wrong?
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Old 06-23-2003, 12:44 PM   #4
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Old 06-23-2003, 12:54 PM   #5
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Doesn't surprise me, but still very sad. Hopefully this gets addressed in a serious way.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:21 PM   #6
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Human rights violations are horrible.

Immigration violations are also bad.

Terrorism is the worst, though.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:24 PM   #7
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Throwing out basic human rights in the name of terrorism prevention is inexcusable.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:33 PM   #8
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Just for the record, ouizy, my opinion is pretty much what Sula stated. If we disregard such basic human necessities as sleep and protection from grave physical abuse, then we are little better than the terrorists we claim to be trying to stop.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:36 PM   #9
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I have not had a chance to read this yet, but here is the actual report. I want to go to the source, rather than trust the (Propaganda)article that Pax posted.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:47 PM   #10
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errr, dread, if you check at the top of the article you will find that it's from the AP. I believe they're generally considered to be a somewhat reliable source.

btw, were you going to provide a link because I can't see it.
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Old 06-23-2003, 02:54 PM   #11
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I cannot see it either, however I am disturbed how these folks were treated in Brooklyn.

As far as Gitmo - even the reports I have read I have not disagreed with how these people ahve been treated.

Maybe a bit harsh, but I weigh their living conditions in Gitmo with how most of these people treated women and children in Afghanistan.

To me one outweighs the other because one is terrorism, and one is justice for terrorism. Remember most of these people were part of the Taliban and we know how wonderful they were...
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:04 PM   #12
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This administration's actions have divided this nation socially, economically, racially and it doesn't seem to phase many. Us against them, right? People have labeled these individuals terrorists, therefore they have no rights, they are not human, guilty until proven innocent. Let me remind you that many have not even been convicted yet(and if they ever will, it will be without due process of the law), and no one has been able to tell me how they were detained, but yet they can tell me they know they're terrorist.
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:09 PM   #13
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As much as I disapprove of some of Bush's beliefs and actions, can you give examples of this:

Quote:
This administration's actions have divided this nation socially, economically, racially and it doesn't seem to phase many.
Also, from what I understand the gov't has not done anything agains the laws of the US by holding detainees at Gitmo.

Also, why is it our right to know how these people were detained?

Does that not have to do with National Security?
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:12 PM   #14
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I understand your point, ouizy, but I would hope that we hold ourselves to a higher standard of human rights than the Taliban. Also, you're making an assumption that each of the individuals being held is guilty of what they're accused of, be it belonging to Al Queda or part of the Taliban regime. Last time I checked, in the US we prided ourselves on the notion of fair and impartial justice and "innocent until proven guilty". So all that to say, I don't think we should be patting ourselves on the back for affording prisoners better treatment than they would receive in a authoritarian state.

p.s. this in reference to your previous post, not the most recent.
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:18 PM   #15
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I understand.

I would think they would any prisoners in the same fashion that an American prisoner would be held. I do not understand why the special conditions are being used for these people.

However, I understand that it is not my role to understand this. People who are in command and control have their reasons and I do not think we necessarily have the right to know everything.

Remember the US is not a third world country, nor is it a dictatorship, what is being done is being done for a reason, and I do not think this administration (for their own greedy reasons) would do anything that far from normal to these prisoners unless they thought it was important to do so.

I do not equate our handling of these people with the actions of these people.
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:24 PM   #16
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And I believe that just trusting the government without questioning is very dangerous and the first step in the road to losing rights. Power and secrecy are a very dangerous combination and as much as I'd like to believe that we would never abuse justice, human beings are finite and governments equally so. I think it's vital for citizens to remain alert and to question the validity of actions such as what's happening in Guantanamo. While the current administration may think they are justified in doing what they are doing, they could be wrong. And if we expect to be taken seriously outside our own borders, it is paramount that we be trustworthy and fair. If the rest of the world sees us applying one standard to ourselves and a different one to the rest of the world, it will recognize it as hypocrisy and our quest for safety and international cooperation will be compromised.
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Old 06-23-2003, 03:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
As much as I disapprove of some of Bush's beliefs and actions, can you give examples of this:



Also, from what I understand the gov't has not done anything agains the laws of the US by holding detainees at Gitmo.

Also, why is it our right to know how these people were detained?

Does that not have to do with National Security?
I'm not saying it's our right to know, but what we do know is that these individuals have been held, some up to a year without any convictions. I ask how they were detained because I would really like to know why so many assume that these individuals are guilty. Were they caught in the act? Holding their membership card? Or just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

As far as examples of how this administration has divided us...look at the this administraions actions on affirmative action, and many economic experts believe Bush's economic policies will create a greater divide between rich and poor, and now you can be labeled terrorist and it's ok if your basic human rights and due process is taken away from you. I'm getting off topic here but we could get much deeper into this in another thread perhaps.
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Old 06-23-2003, 04:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
errr, dread, if you check at the top of the article you will find that it's from the AP. I believe they're generally considered to be a somewhat reliable source.

btw, were you going to provide a link because I can't see it.
Please notice I winked when I typed in "propaganda". I said it in jest.

AS to the link missing, my apologies, I am suffering from a migrane attack...hence the mistakes I have made on the board today.

HEre is the link:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/detainees.pdf
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Old 06-23-2003, 04:23 PM   #19
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One small note......I have skimmed the report.......and my skimming it appears that the abuses that happened.....were not systemic abuses by both of the detention centers. It appears from reading the report that they happened in the Brooklynn Detention Center. The report makes a few references to the fact that the New Jersey Detention Center was run quite well.


What does this mean? In my mind Ashcroft and the Governement are not responsible given there was a distinct difference in the treatment of the detainees. AS to who is responsible, the officers and the person running the Detention Center in Brooklynn should 100% be held accountable for their actions.
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Old 06-23-2003, 04:51 PM   #20
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I agree, they just can't assume these guys are terrorists. They have to prove it. I'll be damned if I have any sympathy or whatever for the Taliban. They are some of the worst 's I've ever read about--in the same league as Ceceauscu and Milosevic. It does come back to proving these guys had anything to do with these terrorist scumbag operations.
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