There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

[Dreadsox]

We are facing a Civilization that is NOT anywhere near ready for a Democratic society.

[Q]
With Iraqi state gone, Islamic courts emerge

08/04/03

NEIL MacFARQUHAR

NAJAF, Iraq -- An obviously agitated young man walked into the Islamic court of Najaf and confessed to the sheik serving as chief judge that he had murdered his mother. [/Q]

He walked in because the Iraqi Police force is busy hiding inside of their barracks while our soldiers are protecting them and being blown up outside. But, he did come to court to turn himself in. It sounds hopefull right?????

[Q]"I was merciful with her: I emptied a full magazine because I didn't want to make her suffer," explained the man, Mukdar Jabar Ali. He did it, he said, because he was sure his mother had been sullying the family name by committing adultery since he was a boy. He got a gun two weeks ago, he said, and did what he had wanted to do for years. [/Q]

Just when I thought there was hope. This is what we are up against....bringing Democracy to people who would kill their own parent over adultery. This is a "Civilization" that will NEVER be able to blend in with the "Western" world if this is the way they behave. Hold on though, he "didn't want her to suffer" so he emptied the whole magazine into her?????


[Q]Sitting on the carpeted floor of a tiny chamber in a former theological school, the judge, Sheik Ahmed Shaibani, listened carefully, asking for details.

Shaibani ordered a scribe sitting beside him to write three letters. One went to the police asking them for whatever files they might have on the killing. A second went to the local sheik in a neighboring town to prevent the mother's family from exacting revenge; and a third summoned the mother's family to tell its side of the story. [/Q]

A letter to the local sheik to prevent the family from getting revenge. This is just freaking great!!!

Dear Sheik,

Please stop by Akbar's relatives house and ask them to postpone killing him. WE are currently trying to get information out of the local police department in this matter.

Thank you,

Sheik Ahmed Shaibani

What is going on? It appears that it is the rise of a religious court system, and possibly a religious governement similar to Iran.

[Q]Those who want to establish an Islamic system of government in Iraq similar to the one in neighboring Iran stepped quickly into the vacuum, establishing courts in Najaf and in Baghdad to deal with a welter of legal problems.

Their docket covers all types of criminal and civil cases that normal courts would hear: murder, divorce, spouse abuse, property disputes.

The religious courts have also asserted a special right to grant permission sought by people seeking revenge against the former ruling Baath Party of Saddam.

Many aggrieved Iraqis, feeling that they have no other place they can trust for legal rulings, have flocked to these courts. It does not seem to matter that the courts have no enforcement power and are not recognized by either the U.S. occupation forces or Iraq's other Muslim religious authorities.[/Q]

No it doesn't matter. What matters is REALITY. The REALITY is that if the People believe that this is the LEGAL authority, then it is.

[Q]Shaibani insists the court is here to stay. The 33-year-old cleric, the Friday Prayers leader in the southern Euphrates city of Diwaniya, is a close aid to Muqtada al-Sadr, the scion of a renowned clan of respected clergymen. His widely revered father, Grand Ayatollah Mohammad Sadiq al-Sadr, was an opponent of Saddam and is thought to have been assassinated by the government in 1999.

Al-Sadr and the young clerics around him have broken with the more conservative, senior clergymen in Najaf by openly calling for opposition to the U.S. occupation and for the establishment of a theocracy mirroring that in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Shaibani said an important purpose of the Islamic courts was to investigate the assassination of al-Sadr. The group seized all the local records from the secret police and are slowly working through them.

They have also given religious approval to those who wish to kill members of the old Baath government. The sheik would not say how many have sought such permission, and emphasized that the court would not carry out any death sentences itself. But he said such rulings were based on guidelines issued by the grand ayatollah in the Iranian holy city of Qum. That alone gives the court the proper standing, he said. [/Q]

So, the POWER of these courts comes from IRAN. I smell a rising THEOCRACY. It is nice that the court does not have to carry out the death sentences themselves. They are just there to give permission to go out and kill people.

Yes, we find the defendant guilty....now go kill him.

[Q]The ruling states that the lowest ranks of the Baath Party, like students who joined in order to graduate, should not be killed, but makes fair game of informants, torturers, major party figures plus current saboteurs, the sheik said. [/Q]

Oh thank goodness, a voice of reason. Do not kill the lowest ranks. It is not their fault. It truly isn't. Catch a big fish though, and you have our permission to kill him.

But back to Ali the boy who killed his mother.

[Q]Ali, 25, also expressed the belief that his chances of getting a fair ruling from the religious court were better than they would be from a regular court. His slain mother's relatives said they would extract a terrible revenge on him and his four brothers unless they turned over their house, two female relatives from the father's side of the family for marriage and significant blood money.

Ali said he owed the mother's family nothing, since he was restoring the family honor for the adultery. He told the judge that the local police were still corrupt Baathists, demanding bribes to make sure the case ended in his favor.

Shaibani promised a fair mediation.

"This court will rule according to our Shiite traditions," Ali said. "This is the true court. This is the ruling of God." [/Q]

I sincerely doubt that there is any chance at a Democracy existing in this place. In my humble opinion this is a Civilization that is in extreme conflict with Western Civilization. We are in big trouble the longer we stay there.

President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education.

 

[verte76]

I must agree with you Dread. I felt that the Administration was terribly naive in dealing with the realities of political life in the Middle Eastern countries. You can't take a country which had drifted off into primitive chaos, which is quite frankly what had happened to Iraq before anyone had ever heard of Saddam, and build a Western-style democracy in it. Look at Turkey. They've been working on democracy there for almost 100 years, starting with the same thing, medieval theocracy. It's been a chaotic struggle at best. The Administration is making the same mistake that Britain made during and after the First World War. They didn't any more understand those countries and their politics than they did the man in the moon. This Administration doesn't know what the hell it's doing, and it's fking up big time.

 

[Scarletwine]

"President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education."

I saw the press conference the Military Families and the Veterans for Peace gave today announcing the "Bring the Troops Home Now" initiative. It was very informative, especially on the living conditions the troops are dealing with. 5 men in a 12 X 14 tent in 120 degree heat. While the oil people, and the US authorities live in Sadaam's palaces.
What was most disturbing was the lack of parts for equipment or repairs. The DOD did a shitty job preparing for this war. They must have thought it would be over so fast that they wouldn't need spare parts. Our troops are suffering from Rummys cheap war, kinda reminds me of troops in Nam having to use bullets sparingly because they were in short supply. I also found horrible the cause of death lies told to one father. They told him and the media he was shot in th eback of the head by Iraqi's only to later find he stepped on a cluster bomb placed during the night and his unit wasn't informed.

 

[anitram]

Islam is a theocracy. So is Judaism. They share that in common, their religion beliefs permeate the social fabric, at least historically speaking.

I don't understand all this talk about democracy in Iraq. When was Iraq a democracy? Never. Now we think we'll march in there with our lofty ideas and goals of what life should be like and these people will fall in line and thank us for our brilliance.

 

[melon]

I guess I no longer know what to say to this. It is probably why I cannot gather myself to support the Islamic world, despite the cries of the liberal anti-war crowd.

I'm surprised that the Western world really tolerates this crap.

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

I guess I no longer know what to say to this. It is probably why I cannot gather myself to support the Islamic world, despite the cries of the liberal anti-war crowd.

I'm surprised that the Western world really tolerates this crap.

Melon

One thing for sure....The US Military should not be used to bring Democracy into another country. I still believe that if we had a broad coalition with the UN and the Arab league involved this would be going better.

The administration will be there until after the election. Bush cannot pull troops out because it will make him look bad. He cannot leave with a theocracy in place, and if you have a true democracy chances are we will be looking at someone we do not want elected. It is a situation in wich we cannot win.

Peace

 

[deep]

i really don't understand how anyone ever bought the bullshit of democracy to iraq or afghanistan.

 

[Dreadsox]

Moqtada Sadr the Cleric mentioned in the first article, who was responsible for leading the younger clerics into theocratic judging of cases was in the news today. There was a riot in the area of town named after his father.

[Q]Witnesses offered a series of accounts of the helicopter's path near the red-and-white, six-story transmission tower. Some said it approached once, and a female soldier leaned out and tried to tear down the flag with a knife. Other accounts said it approached twice, with a soldier pointing a gun at a youth who climbed the tower and tried to fend off the helicopter with a metal bar.

Johnson dismissed the idea of a soldier leaning out of the helicopter. "There's no way anybody could do that," he said.

Footage of the incident aired by the satellite news channel Al-Arabiya clearly showed a helicopter hovering for several seconds near the flag, which bore an inscription of a 9th Century descendant of the prophet Muhammad known as the Mahdi. [/Q]

Then things got ugly.

[Q]Soon after, Johnson said, a crowd that began at 100 swelled to 3,000. When U.S. military vehicles later came down a main street, he said, some in the crowd attacked them with small arms and a rocket-propelled grenade. Residents dismissed that, saying that the crowd, many of them teenagers, were only throwing rocks and that U.S. soldiers opened fire randomly.

Residents said that the fatality was a boy between 10 and 11 years old. Johnson said four people were wounded. But doctors at the nearby Thawra Hospital put the figure at three. One of them was a 12-year-old boy shot in the face, said Wisam Jassim, a physician there. [/Q]

Wonderful. One said claiming rocket propelled grenades and the other claiming rocks. Sounds like the Boston Massacre.

So how does does this relate to the Cleric in the other Article?

[Q]The regions of Iraq populated by Shiite Muslims, who form the country's majority and were relentlessly repressed by Saddam Hussein's government, have remained largely quiet since the war's end. Even the most militant clerics, such as Moqtada Sadr, a young firebrand whose faction enjoys broad popular support in poorer parts of Baghdad and the southern city of Basra, have stopped short of a call to arms.

But discontent over the pace of restoring basic services has echoed through much of Iraq, and shortages of gasoline and electricity unleashed two days of protests and violence over the weekend in and around Basra. In the Baghdad neighborhood renamed after Sadr's revered father, an ayatollah believed killed by Hussein's government in 1999, it took no more than a possible miscalculation by a helicopter.

When it ended, clergy had issued a manifesto demanding an apology and giving U.S. forces a day to withdraw from Sadr City.

"We are not responsible for the reaction of people if they enter the city again," said Sheik Hadi Darraji, a leading cleric. [/Q]

So now we have an incident in the are of town named after the Cleric's father. They are now telling us not to return to their part of town. They in the article quote citizens as saying they will attack US troops.

And the article closes with this wonderful sight....the beginnings of a REVOLUTION? Maybe???

[Q]Some U.S. officials have become increasingly worried about the influence of Sadr, a junior cleric who has little religious standing but heads an organization that enjoys support among the poorest and most disenfranchised in some Shiite cities.

Over the past month, he has railed against the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, calling it a tool of the occupation that should be dissolved. He has repeatedly urged the creation of a militia known as "The Army of the Mahdi," albeit unarmed.

After the clash, his clerical followers staged a rally atop a fire station near the transmission tower, with a crowd of hundreds waving banners below. The boy said to have fended off the helicopter was introduced.

Darraji, one of Sadr's followers, then delivered their demands: The Americans must stage a "complete and comprehensive withdrawal" within a day, issue an apology, provide compensation to the families of the dead and wounded and deliver their written agreement in English and Arabic.

"We give them one night to implement these demands without any maneuvers or delays," Darraji said.

At times in the speech, the crowd broke into chants. "Today, today is peaceful, tomorrow, tomorrow is war," one went, as the sun set over the neighborhood. "We are preparing your army, Mahdi," another intoned.

"The Americans want to provoke the people. They have a plan," said Qassem Khusaf, 33, as he watched the protest, which dispersed by nightfall. "They are provoking us to see whether we will fight or not." [/Q]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55761-2003Aug13.html

 

[Dreadsox]

One interesting thing of note. This Cleric comes from one of four groups that claim to be direct decendants of the Prophet Mohammad

[Q]

IRAQ
Shiites

Updated: April 21, 2003


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will Shiites control the new Iraq?
Most experts are certain that Iraqi Shiites, who make up some 60 percent of Iraq?s population, will play a leading role in the reconstituted country. How large a role is up in the air, because the shape of the new Iraqi government has yet to emerge and long-held rivalries among various Shiite branches and between Shiites and other Iraqis?Sunni Muslims, Kurds, and others?have just begun to play out.

Do Iraq?s Shiites want to impose an Islamic government?
Some do, including some top Shiite religious leaders in Iraq who have ties to Iran?s hard-line Shiite government. But Iraq?s Shiites are not a monolithic force, experts on Iraq say. Many Iraqi Shiites are secularists. They follow a variety of competing religious leaders who preach a range of views toward separation of religion and state. Shiites are also divided by region, class, tribal affiliation, and ethnicity. Most Shiites are Arabs, but some Kurds, Turkomen, and others are also adherents.

What?s the main difference between Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam?
The two groups differ over leadership of the Muslim community. Shiites, who account for 10 percent to 20 percent of the world?s Muslims, believe Islam?s leader should be a descendant of the Prophet Mohammed. Sunnis say leaders should be chosen through consensus. Shiites revere Ali ibn Abi Taled, the Prophet Mohammed?s cousin and son-in-law, who was killed while serving as the top leader, or Caliph, of Islam in the 7th century. His tomb is in Najaf, Iraq?s holiest Shiite city.

Which group has traditionally held power in Iraq?
The Sunnis have dominated Iraq?s politics since the victorious Western nations created Iraq at the end of World War I. Saddam Hussein?s government was led by Sunnis, particularly those from his al-Tikriti clan; Shiites were often brutally repressed. In addition to Iraq, Shiites are in the majority in Lebanon and Bahrain. Shiism is the state religion in Iran.

What are the main religious differences among Iraq?s Shiites?
Iraq experts say there are differences in religious philosophy, which are commonly reflected through adherence to various religious leaders, or ayatollahs, both living and dead. One key point of disagreement: those who believe religion and government should remain in separate spheres, and those who believe that the state should be ruled by Islamic clerics according to religious principles.

What are the main groupings of Shiites maneuvering for influence?
Iraq experts say current power appears to be gathering among three or four main Shiite religious leaders from highly respected religious families that claim to have descended from the Prophet Mohammed and have produced top Islamic scholars for generations. The leaders come from the al-Sadr family, the al-Khoei family, and the al-Hakim family. The supreme leader, however, is the current senior Shiite cleric in Iraq, the Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali al-Sestani.

Are any of the major Shiite religious leaders pro-American?
One was willing to cooperate publicly with America, Abdel Majid Al-Khoei, but he was murdered April 10 in Najaf just after his return from exile. The attitude of the remaining leaders appears to range from wariness about U.S. intentions to virulent opposition. The most important leaders in the al-Hakim and al-Sadr families appear to be strongly anti-U.S., reports indicate.

Why are the Shiite religious leaders largely anti-American?
Experts say U.S. support for Israel angers many Arabs, including Shiites, as does its backing for leaders such as Egypt?s president, Hosni Mubarak, and Saudi Arabia?s al- Saud monarchy. In addition, there is a strong anti-imperialist and dissident strain among the Shiites. In large part, experts say, they want to rule themselves, not be ruled by foreign, Christian occupiers.

How are Iraqi Shiite leaders chosen?
They rise by consensus through the ranks, from the level of prayer leader to ayatollah, a title awarded to those who have exhibited a great scholarly mastery of Islamic law and jurisprudence and have attracted many followers. The apex of the hierarchy is the Marja?iyyah, the title given to the top Shiite religious leader. Most of the senior clerics of the four most influential families have served as Maraji? sometime in the past century. The seat of the Marja?iyyah has usually been in Najaf, and sometimes in the holy city of Qum in Iran.

Did Saddam Hussein choose these religious leaders?
Scholars say no. Shiites chose the leaders themselves, through a system that considered a cleric?s learning, influence, and popularity. But because, in the Shiite tradition, the rulings of religious clerics can sometimes take precedence over state power, Saddam brutally intimidated outspoken Shiite leaders. He murdered many of them, in the process creating martyrs in the eyes of Iraq?s Shiites. Many of today?s main leaders, in fact, are the sons of murdered ayatollahs and other senior Iraqi religious figures.

What does Marja?iyyah al-Sestani believe?
Scholars say the Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Ali al-Sestani, 73, espouses what is known as a quietist approach to Islam, preaching that religion should hold itself aloof from the state and shun involvement in worldly affairs. He appears to be continuing in this tradition. Early in the war, he advised Shiites not to get involved on either side in the conflict between the United States and Saddam?s regime. Some U.S. supporters interpreted that as an endorsement of the American campaign. Al-Sestani was appointed after the 1999 killing of another revered ayatollah, Muhammed al-Sadr.

How large is his following?
Most Iraqi Shiites are still thought to consider al-Sestani the highest ranking member of Iraq?s clergy, experts say. But because al-Sestani has shown little interest in running political affairs, a struggle over who will exercise overt political authority appears to have erupted. Already, two clerics have been killed in Najaf, reportedly over control of Ali?s tomb. Al-Sestani has reportedly tried to stay out of the fray by withdrawing into his house in Najaf and refusing to see visitors.

Who was killed in Najaf?
The pro-American cleric, Abdel Majid al-Khoei. A moderate who has been living in London, al-Khoei entered Najaf on April 5 with U.S. Special Forces. In the following days, he met with al-Sestani?s son, then on April 10 went to Ali?s tomb, apparently to make peace with a cleric tied to Saddam?s regime, Haidar al-Refaei. Both men were murdered when a fight broke out, apparently over who should lead Iraq?s Shiites.

What did al-Khoei believe?
Experts say he had supported a new Iraqi democracy that would provide justice to Shiites and other Iraqis but not be ruled by religious extremism. His father, also a moderate, was the top Islamic cleric in Iraq until his death in 1992. While in exile, al-Khoei was an occasional dinner guest at British Prime Minister Tony Blair?s house and was a U.S. State Department favorite. Observers say he represented the United States? best hope for a moderate Shiite movement in Iraq.

Why was he killed?
There are many differing accounts. Most observers seem to agree that al-Khoei tried to exert too much authority too quickly, which angered many Muslims in Najaf, especially supporters of another rising Shiite leader, Muqtada al-Sadr.

Who is Muqtada al-Sadr?
He is the young son of Mohammed Sadeq al-Sadr, a Shiite ayatollah who, with two others sons, was murdered by Saddam?s regime in 1999. Pro-U.S. observers say he is among the most worrying of the ascendant Shiites forces in Iraq. He has apparently already organized his own militia group, the Jammat-i-Sadr-Than. U.S. scholars know little about him?even his age, reports of which range from 22 to 30?but fear he may support a form of radical Islam. Some of his popularity springs from lingering devotion to his father; the Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad has reportedly been renamed from Saddam City to Sadr City to honor the senior al-Sadr.

Is al-Sadr trying to remove al-Sestani?
Perhaps. Fifty fighters tied to al-Sadr reportedly besieged the senior cleric in his home for four days after the murder of al-Khoei and demanded that al-Sestani step down and leave Iraq. Al-Sestani called a number of tribal leaders to his aid and, after a stand-off, the siege was lifted.

What other Shiite religious leader is playing a role?
Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, an Iraqi religious leader who has been living in Iran. His group, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), has been working for the overthrow of Saddam since the 1980s. SCIRI reportedly has close ties to Iranian leaders. Its militia, the 5,000-to-10,000-member Badr Brigades, was trained by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

What does al-Hakim believe?
Al-Hakim opposes American presence in postwar Iraq and has said he wants an Islamic government for Iraq. Whether he supports a radical Islamic theocracy like Iran?s is unclear.

What?s the relationship between al-Hakim and the United States?
Complex. The United States has long treated al-Hakim as an ally against Saddam Hussein, but now the relationship is strained. Even in the lead-up to the war, SCIRI received favored treatment from Washington, and was the main Shiite faction represented at a U.S.-sponsored Iraqi opposition conference in London last December. Recently, al-Hakim has fallen afoul of U.S. leaders; Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has told al-Hakim to keep his soldiers out of Iraq, and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) published a report that said SCIRI does not have much support among Iraqis. Al-Hakim?s group recently boycotted the recent U.S.-sponsored Iraqi leadership conference in the ancient city of Ur.

How much support does al-Hakim have?
It is difficult to know, as he is still in Iran. There have been reports that his brother recently made a brief visit to Basra and received a hero?s welcome. In addition, Shiite street protestors in southern Iraq have reportedly called for his leadership.

Have any secular Shiite leaders emerged?
One potential leader is Ahmed Chalabi, a secular Shiite exile who was airlifted into Iraq by the Pentagon along with 600 of his Free Iraqi militia fighters. He is reportedly favored by the U.S. Defense Department to play a leading role, but is viewed with skepticism by the CIA and some in the U.S. State Department. Other attempts at finding local Shiite leaders have begun. In Basra, for example, a local government council consisting largely of Shiite tribal leaders has been created. In Baghdad, a man who some press reports say is allied with Chalabi, Mohammed al-Zubaidi, has recently proclaimed himself the city?s administrator, without U.S. approval.

How important are tribal and clan ties among the Shiites?
It depends. Scholars say that in some places, especially major cities, there are many Shiites who no longer define themselves as members of one clan or another. These include many of the Shiite scientists, engineers, teachers, and bureaucrats who worked in Saddam?s regime. In other areas, tribal and clan ties that date back centuries are still important forms of self-identification. In addition, a form of rough justice, based on retribution and revenge killings between clans, is still sometimes practiced. [/Q]

 

[oliveu2cm]

"President Bush, bring the troops home NOW please and save our families any further agony. Put the money you will save into true homeland security and education."

I saw the press conference the Military Families and the Veterans for Peace gave today announcing the "Bring the Troops Home Now" initiative. It was very informative, especially on the living conditions the troops are dealing with. 5 men in a 12 X 14 tent in 120 degree heat. While the oil people, and the US authorities live in Sadaam's palaces.
What was most disturbing was the lack of parts for equipment or repairs. The DOD did a shitty job preparing for this war. They must have thought it would be over so fast that they wouldn't need spare parts. Our troops are suffering from Rummys cheap war, kinda reminds me of troops in Nam having to use bullets sparingly because they were in short supply. I also found horrible the cause of death lies told to one father. They told him and the media he was shot in th eback of the head by Iraqi's only to later find he stepped on a cluster bomb placed during the night and his unit wasn't informed.

 

[oliveu2cm]

"I was merciful with her: I emptied a full magazine because I didn't want to make her suffer," explained the man, Mukdar Jabar Ali. He did it, he said, because he was sure his mother had been sullying the family name by committing adultery since he was a boy. He got a gun two weeks ago, he said, and did what he had wanted to do for years.

This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?

 

[ALEXRUS]

I remember Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov say more than once that "Iraq does not need democracy brought on the wings of Tomahawks"...
See for example: www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/1830692

 

[verte76]

Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?

Absolutely olive. Our political officials don't know anything about this stuff. How in hell can they stop stuff like this knowing nothing about it? Forget it. This burns me up. If they hadn't been such a bunch of ignoramuses about this this story might have a happier ending.

 

[ALEXRUS]

or www.templetonthorp.com/de/news273

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

This "Honor Killing" bullshit has been going on for ages in many countries like Iraq. The US is doing everything wrong here- we can' t try and prevent stuff like this while everything else in Iraq is a mess - it's like trying to build a car by starting with the rear view mirror. We need the frame (the respect, trust) first before we can do anything about this. I hope but don't really believe anything will ever really be done about these types of "honor killings".. after all what do these women have to offer anyone/country for helping them?

What is the goal of the US at this point? To remove a dangerous leader from a volital region of the world? To change societal, cultural and religious traditions that are over 1000 years old? Is it fair to add such expectations?

The media sugar coats any analysis of Iraqi culture by Western standards. The result is the continued existance of "honor killings".

Do you think a broad-based UN-backed coalition could resolve these issues? If so, why hasn't this been addressed in the international community?

 

[oliveu2cm]

Re: Re: Re: There will NEVER be Democracy in Iraq

What is the goal of the US at this point? To remove a dangerous leader from a volital region of the world? To change societal, cultural and religious traditions that are over 1000 years old? Is it fair to add such expectations?

The media sugar coats any analysis of Iraqi culture by Western standards. The result is the continued existance of "honor killings".

Do you think a broad-based UN-backed coalition could resolve these issues? If so, why hasn't this been addressed in the international community?

I think the honor killings-problems and the post-war are two separate issues, definitely. I didn't like how the article made it seem like this is a new development, or we are just learning about it.

I agree, and it's a disservice to the Iraqi people and to the media customers when the Iraqi culture is sugar-coated like that. Or even how the death of US soldiers in Iraq has been sugar-coated or the issue skirted completely to not "upset" anyone.

As for the US goal- I disagree with why they got themselves into this position in the first place! But I don't think again denying the UN will help matters. As far as Iraq is concerned, it's a really confusing and difficult situaiton and we shouldn't have gotten ourselves involved in the first place. I'm afraid in order to avoid giving contrl to religious extremists we'll hand over control to another Saddam- and I'm afraid that the next-Saddam will be worse, since we don't know him at all. But the religious extremist can't be the answer. But there are many people in Iraq who feel that could be the answer. So basically, I don't think we belong there!

Sorry, it's a little frustrating.

Lastly, yes I think we need a broad-band coallition to attack the way women are treated and the condition of life in Iraq & similiar countries. Leaders need to take a stand and say we will NOT allow this to continue. But I just don't see this happening- like I said before, these women aren't standing on oil mines and I don't think "because it's wrong" is a big enough reason in the head-hancho leaders minds for why they should protect these women. Like I've said once before, equal-rights for women aren't even a high priority in this country, so I can't see $$ and effort being spent on other countries.

 

[verte76]

This "another Saddam" problems gives me worries, too. It could happen. The U.S. could support someone who's an alternative to an Iran-style theocracy------isn't that what we supported during the Iran/Iraq war, much to our chagrin? Then again many of the fundamentalists are Sunni, and being a Shi'ite doesn't mean fundamentalist or even conservative. There is a liberal Shi'ite sect in Turkey, I forget the name of their group right now. Sorry, Day From Hell. The Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia are Sunni and some of their religious guys are real 's. Hell, my avatar is a sex-abuse victim from Saudi Arabia and her abuser is a member of their religious establishment!
Who knows how this stuff is going to turn out. I didn't really like it when we got ourselves in this situation, and now there doesn't seem like there's any way out. I'm frustrated.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]Before the prayers, crowds of worshippers chanted anti-American slogans and vowed to fight to defend their faith.

"We are students of tradition and faith," shouted Ali Hussein, 15, holding an elaborate curved sword above his head as he led other young men in a chant. "We will follow Moqtada wherever he orders us. He is in our blood."

The young religious student was referring to Moqtada al Sadr, a controversial young Shiite cleric who has a wide following in Sadr City. The area used to be known as Saddam City, but was renamed for Sadr's father - a respected cleric whom Saddam Hussein's security forces murdered in 1998 - after Saddam's overthrow last spring.

In recent weeks, the younger Sadr has threatened to raise an army of volunteers to oppose the coalition forces. But at services Friday in the holy Shiite city of Kufa, 90 miles south of Baghdad, he urged nonviolent resistance.[/Q]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/6543069.htm

 

[Rono]

and i always thought that a free press in a importaint tool for democracy,...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/aug2003/jour-a08.shtml

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]US occupation authorities shut down an Iraqi newspaper last month and have stepped up the detention of journalists for reporting on the ongoing resistance. These actions, along with many other repressive measures, indicate the true character of the ?democracy? and ?freedom? the American occupiers are bringing to the Iraqi people.[/Q]

Iraq is not yet a democracy, it is still a war zone. The only accurate part of the statement is that they are occupiers.

[Q]On July 21, Iraqi police accompanied by US troops broke down the front door to the Baghdad premises of Al-Mustaqila (the Independent) newspaper, ransacked its offices, confiscated equipment, and arrested the editor Abdul Sattar Shalan, whose whereabouts have not been reported since. The newspaper?s offense was the publication of an article carrying the headline ?Death to All Spies and Those Who Cooperate with the US.?[/Q]

Incorrect information according to two articles I have read. While I would have shut them down for the headline, the editor was threatening to publish the names of the informants and put them on trial. Here is a little glimpse into the article:

On July 13, Abdul Sattar Shalan, the editor of Baghdad's Al-Mustaqila (The Independent), wrote that his paper would reveal the names of locals who were cooperating with Americans, "so . . . the people can issue their verdict on them." He went on to say that "spilling the blood of spies is a religious and patriotic requirement."

The headline bore a strong resemvlance to the threats that the coalition was receiving from resistance groups according to the Boston Globe:

The title closely echoed recent threats made by clandestine armed groups against US forces and their Iraqi collaborators.

And a common sense response from the Iraqi Council who were recognized by the UN Security Council this week, if I am not mistaken. I may be, but I have not checked.

''The Coalitional Provisional Authority supports and encourages the development of a free and responsible Iraqi press,'' the agency said in a statement. But it said Mustaqila ''has chosen to threaten the basic human rights of Iraqi citizens'' and published a ''clearly inciteful article,'' putting it in violation of occupation authority rules regarding the media......It said the article in question was ''inconsistent with all laws, religious principles, and human rights,'' and that the right to media dissent should not extend to ''calling for the shedding of others' blood.''



[Q]According to a press release put out by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), as the occupation forces headed by Paul Bremer are known, the newspaper violated the CPA?s Order Number 14 on Prohibited Media Activity by inciting violence. Ironically, the home page of the CPA?s web site prominently features a photo of Saddam Hussein and the $25 million reward offered for information leading to his capture or death, alongside photos of his two dead sons with Xs drawn across their heads.[/Q]

I did not know that the web site put out by the military counted as Media. Nice try at demonstrating hypocrasy.

[Q]Western media reports give no indication of having seen or verified the original Al-Mustaqila article, only repeating the CPA?s version of its headline. However, a journalist at the newspaper said the offending article was a news story on anti-US demonstrations in Fallujah, and the headline quoted a Muslim cleric involved in the organization of the protest.[/Q]

Well, so far every article I have found on Al-Mustaqila says otherwise.

[Q]The CPA has given its administrator, as Bremer is officially titled, unlimited authority under Order Number 14 ?to seize any prohibited materials and production equipment and seal off any operating premises? without warning and without compensation, as well as to arrest and prosecute those found in violation. Under the order, sentencing is to be carried out by the ?relevant authorities,? which can only mean the CPA itself, as there is no functioning Iraqi judicial system. Appeals are allowed in writing only to the administrator himself.[/Q]

Did you read your own opening paragraph? It said Iraqi police with the Us Military. Sounds like local authorities were involved.

[Q]The closure of Al-Mustaqila follows the forced shutdown of the radio station Sawt Bagdad (Voice of Baghdad) a month after it went on the air, because of its ties with Mohammed Mohsen al-Zubaidi, the self-proclaimed ?mayor of Baghdad,? who was removed by the US forces in April. In June, occupation forces raided the distribution center of the Shi?ite newspaper Sadda-al-Auma in Najaf, impounding copies of an edition that supposedly encouraged resistance against Americans.[/Q]

1st of all the Raio station was not something that existed before the war. It was a propaganda tool for the so called Mayor of Bagdhad who was calling on Iraqi's to ROB BANKS. While the article would love to make it look like the US came in and closed an innocent station, they were not innocent according to the research I have done.

[Q]Al-Adala newspaper, one of several affiliated with the Shi?ite Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution, reported that on July 19 eighteen US soldiers backed by six armored vehicles raided the newspaper?s Baghdad offices, breaking down doors, tearing up furniture, destroying copiers and other equipment, seizing computers and even robbing several people, including one visitor who lost $20,000.[/Q]

I have only been able to find one article in reference to this event. I believe it occured, but I do not believe a US Soldier robbed a man. The article I found indicated that the soldiers came in and confiscated computers. The paper has links to the militant cleric that I mentioned in my posts above "Moqtada Sadr".

[Q]The last few weeks have also seen the detention of numerous journalists whose reporting has run afoul of the occupation authorities. On July 1, two Iranian journalists filming a documentary in southern Iraq for the state-run Iranian network were arrested, along with their interpreter and their driver, on unspecified charges of ?security violations.? Their belongings were removed a week later from the hotel where they had been staying, and on July 15, US authorities informed the Iranian consul that the reporters had been taken to the detention center at the Baghdad airport. No further information on the detainees? alleged illegal activities has been released.[/Q]

Here is the only quote I can find on this situation.

"They claim to be journalists, but they were certainly not acting in a journalistic capacity when they were arrested."

I have no problems with this.


[Q]On July 26, four Turkish journalists were detained for 90 minutes, and their digital photos of soldiers were erased. On the same day, an Al-Jazeerah satellite television network cameraman in the northern city of Mosul was arrested along with his driver while filming an attack on American forces. They were released the next day after going on hunger strike to protest their arrest, but their film was confiscated. Another crew from Al-Jazeerah was detained briefly on July 22 while filming protests against the US-British presence.[/Q]

As for the digital camera, who knows what was on it. Mayber there was a informant on it that would have been in danger. The article does not give enough information, and given the lack of details, it does not surprise me.

As for the Al-Jazeerah reporters, I would want the film too. To use to train soldiers how the attakcs occur. To see who was doing the attack.

[Q]On July 27, the Japanese journalist Kazutaka Sato was beaten by US soldiers and detained for an hour until other journalists came to look for him. He was grabbed while filming a US attack on a Baghdad residence thought to be sheltering Saddam Hussein. Although Hussein was nowhere to be found, five civilians were killed in the raid. The group Reporters Without Borders quoted Sato as saying, ?It seems they had something to hide, perhaps the bodies of civilians.?[/Q]

This is the only case in which I agree with the article. The soldiers should be prosected for their behavior.

 

[Dreadsox]

Looks like Freedom of the Press is spreading throughout Iraq when the press does not encourage Killing, Looting....ect.

http://electroniciraq.net/news/printer975.shtml

 

[verte76]

The one bright spot in the whole mess is the new freedom for the press. There are new newspapers, people are writing what they want, and people are saying what they believe, something they couldn't do under Saddam. Still, this isn't going to turn on the electricity or provide clean water. That's the crux of the problem.

 

[Dreadsox]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030815/thumb.1060953289.iraq_dlm101.jpg

A Shiite muslim chants anti-American slogans prior to Friday prayers at the poorest district of Baghdad, Iraq known as Al Sadr City on Friday Aug. 15, 2003. Tens of thousands of Shiite muslims gathered to hear their religious leaders speak about the apology that the U.S. forces delivered after an incident involving a helicopter last Aug. 13 that left one Iraqi dead and four wounded. (AP Photo/Dario Lopez-Mills)

 

[tyrone]

We should pray that things get better over there!

Ty.

 

[Dreadsox]

welcome to fym tyrone

 

[deep]

Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is on the rise!!!

Al-Sadr bloc talks of alliance with Sunnis, Christians

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- One day after suspending participation in Iraq's government, the bloc loyal to anti-U.S. Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr announced a possible new political alliance with Sunnis and Christians.

Calling the group a "national front," the head of al-Sadr's bloc in Parliament -- Falah Hassan Shanshel -- said the groups would target the U.N. Security Council's decision to extend the mandate of the 160,000 multinational force in Iraq for another year.

The formation of such an alliance has been in the works for at least two months, said Saleh al-Mutlag, a prominent Sunni politician and vocal critic of al-Maliki.

He called the alliance a nonsectarian, national patriotic front, drawing from different areas of the country and also including secularists, Kurds, Yazidis, Turkmens and clerics.

The group does not include the Mehdi Army, a militia loyal to al-Sadr, al-Mutlag said, adding that he believes the militia should dissolve. He said that al-Sadr himself is "not negative" about the alliance and that it could be achieved peacefully.

Members of the alliance are working with insurgents to get them to lay down their arms, al-Mutlag said. He emphasized that a withdrawal table for U.S. troops would convince insurgents Americans won't stay.

 

[Dreadsox]

08-13-2003 07:54 PM

That was the start of this thread.....

Damn....How close to the center of a bullseye was I?

 

[BVS]

Pretty damn close...

 

[trevster2k]

You should be advising the government, Dread!

Oh wait a minute, you probably would have been fired for suggesting such negative scenarios.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Islam is a theocracy. So is Judaism. They share that in common, their religion beliefs permeate the social fabric, at least historically speaking.

I don't understand all this talk about democracy in Iraq. When was Iraq a democracy? Never. Now we think we'll march in there with our lofty ideas and goals of what life should be like and these people will fall in line and thank us for our brilliance.

Also what is so "shocking" about an honour killing. I mean its not like the usa has a clean record when it comes to people murdering other people for pathetic reasons, im sure they've been plenty of 'honour' killings in the states they just obviously arn't called that.

I just have never understood why people seem to have thought that having american troops swoop into a country, bomb the shit out of it, kill so fucking many innocent people (and even not so innocent people, but still HUMANS who were DEFENDING their country from ASSULT) cause a civil war, complete and utter unrest and then expect that country to do their bidding change to the 'oh so wonderful democracy way like us'
America on the whole with the message it sends out is like a cesspool of corruption, violence, absolute decadence, obesity and sexual perversaty. Obviously thats not all america and the people in it, but a lot of what the media portrays and how the us comes accross, this is the msg that gets out, and then you wonder why other countries don't want to be like the us.

I just think the situation is so fucked up I don't know where to begin. Its like you've gone into a country screwed up all the good, replaced evil with evil let all the psychos run around unopposed while "accidently" killing civilians and then saying 'alright, you look after ya selfs now...see ya!'
I don't want any more civilians and soldiers killed, but i dont think cut and running will do anything but hinder the problem more..