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Old 06-06-2002, 02:45 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Citric
If marijuana is legal, the demand for more potent drugs will be increased. That causes major problems: more deaths, more money spent on expensive 'stronger' drugs, and more people experimenting.
That is not (necessarily) the case. Here in the Netherlands marijuana is de-criminalised a lot. There are even so-called 'coffee-shops' where you can buy marijuana without having to go to a dealer (don't ask me why they are called coffee-shops as I don't suspect they have a wide variety of coffee). But there are not many drug-addicts in the Netherlands, in fact IIRC the Netherlands have one of the lowest numbers in drug-addicts (including those addicted to marijuana). For many, the 'high'-experience of marijuana satisfies all their desires for something stronger than cigarettes. So your reasoning is not a probable scenario.

In essence, the Netherlands has decriminalised the use of drugs (for one's own consumption). It also has a different view on drug (ab)use, seeing it as a medical problem rather than a criminal problem. This allows the police to go after the dealers and not the users. Furthermore, the Netherlands make a distinction between hard drugs (heroine, cocaine, etc.) and soft drugs (marijuana, cannabis). Coffee-shops are allowed to sell soft drugs (albeit under strict conditions) but not hard drugs. This creates a division to prevent people to go to a dealer who, besides the soft drugs, also deals in cocaine, heroine and the like. So those who would like to smoke a joint in the weekend do not come in contact with somebody who tries to entice them in using highly addictive substances.

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For example, many people don't try marijuana because it's illegal. If you were found with it in my school, you'd get expelled. Most people don't want to take that risk, and so, they don't even bother trying it. If it was legal, don't you think more people would try marijuana? The more people who try marijuana experience the 'high.' Why do druggies go from taking marijuana on to taking cocaine? To better the high. I think that if marijuana was legalized, more people would try it. And then, more people would try more potent drugs. That essentially means that the demand would be up, along with many other negative aspects.
On the other hand, there are also many who want to try someting because it is illegal. As I said, soft drugs are semi-legal here in the Netherlands, yet I (and many others) have never found the need to try it.

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Of course, this could be debated all you'd like. There's no telling what could happen if MJ wasn't illegal anymore.
Still, the Dutch numbers give a good indication what the situation will be when marijuana would be legalised. And those numbers do not suggest the doom scenario you are afraid of.

C ya!

Marty
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Old 06-06-2002, 02:30 PM   #22
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Have you ever been to Lowndes County, Alabama?
Hahaha.. That's the funniest thing I've heard this week.. Thank you for allowing me to indulge myself in my weekly soiling of my "drawers" yo.

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Old 06-06-2002, 02:57 PM   #23
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Originally posted by baker6621
I really think that the U.S. Gov't is doing stupid things.
file this under 'the century, understatement of'
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Old 06-06-2002, 03:50 PM   #24
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The war on drugs is doomed ... the better the gov is at stopping drug trade the higher drug prices go (supply and demand) so the war on drugs helps drug dealers get more $$$ and makes drug trade more attractive to ppl who are willing to take the risks.
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Old 06-06-2002, 04:08 PM   #25
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Originally posted by KevM
The war on drugs is doomed ... the better the gov is at stopping drug trade the higher drug prices go (supply and demand) so the war on drugs helps drug dealers get more $$$ and makes drug trade more attractive to ppl who are willing to take the risks.
Inherently faulty logic.. Less Drugs sold.. equals Prices Raised to counteract the smaller number of drugs being sold.. More money Per Drug unit sold perhaps..

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Old 06-06-2002, 10:03 PM   #26
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Martijn-

I admit, I did not know much of that before you posted. Thanks for the information... I think there is a different between 'decriminalising' and 'making it legal' however. You've managed to sway my opinion from 'drugs bad, drugs stay illegal' to 'drugs bad, drugs decriminalised.' I can't really disagree with anything you said in that post. I'm just guessing and theorizing about what would happen in the United States, while you're giving me hard facts about the Netherlands.

I still believe that marijuana should not be 'legal', as baker is proposing. I'm mainly disagreeing with his point. But martjin, really, thanks for the (educational) insight about the Netherlands.
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Old 06-06-2002, 10:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Citric
If marijuana is legal, the demand for more potent drugs will be increased. That causes major problems: more deaths, more money spent on expensive 'stronger' drugs, and more people experimenting.



Actually... In Amsetrdam after Marijuana was legalized there was a notable decrease in the demand for more potent drugs. See it's like this, if you let people smoke pot then all they are going to do is eat pizza and sit in front of their tv's. The drive to get out and actually find other drugs becomes rather muted.
In reponse to the 'goverment making money' off Marijuana statement, there is actually a small bit of truth to that, but it is more like the drug war makes money off it. See if Marijuana was reduced from a Schedual 3 drug to a schedual 1 drug then about a third of the people who are using schedual three drugs drops off, and the goverment can then no longer justify spending the same ammount of money that they have been on the drug war.
And in response to the DARE is crap comment, I agree whole heartedly. DARE actually made me want to do drugs. By the time that they were tyring to scare me off drugs I was smart enought to know that if these drugs were really as dangerous as they were being portrayed and people were still doin em, then they must be pretty damn fun. Also, and more importantly my dare officer, Officer Mike cheated at kick ball. I knew if that fool was cheating at four square against a bunch of fifth graders then he was not to be trusted. OK, that's my rant...
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Old 06-06-2002, 10:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by baker6621


Shoot me cuz I replied to my own post.
*shoots Baker.



Oh, and I'm not shooting you for replying to your own post. It's because you did NEED to reply to your own post. The first post was brilliant all on its own.


*shoots Baker again, but this time, just for fun.

Quote:
But seriously, I'm not presuming. These ppl have admitted to not even visiting countries but still talk like they have. Yes, I have to answer your question, I was born in one. I would never bee such a jackass to talk crap about a country (just cuz the media) and never being outside of the US.
I think this is great! If you really want to strengthen your argument, then discuss what you saw in these countries. I think we could all use some education.

Anyway, Baker, your posts suggest you sure are stressed lately. Here, relax a little.




Oopsy, underage internet drinking. Hope no one minds.





*EDIT

What gives? I put in some smileys, which showed up great in the preview. But when I posted, all I got was a "hosted by Tripod" image. AAAH! Can this be fixed?
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Old 06-07-2002, 12:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


Inherently faulty logic.. Less Drugs sold.. equals Prices Raised to counteract the smaller number of drugs being sold.. More money Per Drug unit sold perhaps..

Just call me Mr. Logic; Purveyor of the White Muslims.

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Old 06-07-2002, 12:42 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


Inherently faulty logic..
Inherently because Baker is young or because he is stupid?

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Old 06-07-2002, 05:13 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheU2


Inherently because Baker is young or because he is stupid?

CK
What is the point of this post? What does this have to do with Baker?

Iím I just confused or are you stupid.


I believe Lemonite was at least conceding to my main point that making a drug illegal increases its value.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite
More money Per Drug unit sold perhaps..
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Old 06-07-2002, 08:00 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by KevM


What is the point of this post? What does this have to do with Baker?

I believe Lemonite was at least conceding to my main point that making a drug illegal increases its value.


I agree. CK, there's no need to slam Baker here. Granted, KevM did that to you, but only in retaliation. But at least KevM further his point, albeit briefly; whereas, you just posted to insult Baker. There's no need for that. I think we can have a very strong debate about the pros and cons of this issue without resulting to insulting someone's intelligence or age.

As for my views... I've long felt that drugs should be decriminalized - that is, go after the dealers only, not the user. Of course, there should be a limit there. If a person has X amount of drugs in his/her possession, that can be considered a criminal "dealer" amount. But no longer should people be arrested for having a joint in their possession. I also feel that marijuana laws, especially with respect to easing the pain of cancer and AIDS patients, should be seriously reviewed.

I'm not saying I suddenly want to see marijuana ads next to the cigarette ads in magazines (can you imagine? LOL!), but I also think far too much effort, money and court time is used on the anit-drug effort without any corresponding results being observed. While I do not have facts in front of me, I'd be VERY surprised to see drug use down because of the anti-drug effort.

Baker's comments about the current anti-drug ads being ineffective are VERY valid. Here is a young man saying that he is almost tempted to take drugs because of an ad on TV. The very demographic these ads are targeting are laughing at these ads - and are claiming that, if anything, they now want to try drugs because of the ads! Scary, no? I read recently that several anti-smoking ads are causing the same response. Teens now WANT to smoke because of the ads. To reiterate, Baker's comments are something that we should listen to carefully. Maybe legalizing all drugs, as is his suggestion, isn't the answer, but at least he is presenting his views, the problems and a possible solution. Seems like a well presented post to me. So rather than insult him on his youth, if you disagree, I feel a suitable post should be made to counter his claims.
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Old 06-07-2002, 08:35 AM   #33
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Originally posted by TheU2


Inherently because Baker is young or because he is stupid?

CK
People take notes.. This is Funny.. Note the Simplicity of it.. It's Sheer Genius.. I mean, with a few words he is able to Dump a Gigantic Shit in this Man's Rear View Mirror.

Go Irish.

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Old 06-07-2002, 02:15 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Lemonite


Note the Simplicity of it.. It's Sheer Genius.. I mean, with a few words he is able to Dump a Gigantic Shit in this Man's Rear View Mirror.

Go Irish.

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Old 06-07-2002, 02:54 PM   #35
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i agree about hearing it from ppl that truly know....but sometimes that still doesn't have an effect.
cocaine is huge @ my school, my school is one of the/if not the biggest drug/police incident school in tucson and its a pretty well off school in a good part of town *shrug*
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Old 06-09-2002, 05:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by notiti

Actually... In Amsetrdam after Marijuana was legalized there was a notable decrease in the demand for more potent drugs. See it's like this, if you let people smoke pot then all they are going to do is eat pizza and sit in front of their tv's. The drive to get out and actually find other drugs becomes rather muted.
In one of those US informative surveys, teens who smoke marijuana are around 85 more times likely to use cocaine, than those who don't. Because of a few programs in school, I'm bound to know facts like that which are totally useless except when trying to prove your point in a FYM argument. When deciding to do drugs, I doubt teens are going to think to themselves about survey-facts. If you want more facts about how MJ leads to stronger drugs in the US, I'm sure I could find them. But seriously, how many people who are doing potent drugs have never smoked marijuana? Marijuana doesn't just keep people 'occupied' and lazy to find drugs with a more powerful inducing-high.

This is turning into a 'consequences of marijuana' thread rather than a war against drugs thread. It comes down to morals, and what people are willing to risk. The fact that marijuana is illegal is a turn-off to some people. That's fairly important. Of course, we could always just throw statistics at each other. But the question being asked is what is the government supposed to do? And I don't have a good answer to that.
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Old 06-10-2002, 12:25 PM   #37
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drugs drugs drugs

Woo Hoo! Go away for a few days and look what tired old argument resurfaces...LOL...

Baker dude, I just cant get over your original rant...like were you high or something? And I dont mean on MJ...lol...

I agree with Citric on some stuff and others who say that weed should be decriminalized. Forget the slippery slope hype that the just say no types love to spout...I smoked weed for 13 years and never felt the urge to try coke or anything else, and I had ready and free access to it (another time, another place we'll discuss that one maybe). Well a did pop a couple (and I mean like 3) ecstasy pills over the space of about a year but that had more to do with wanting to get my freak on with a bunch of other horny ppls who were on it..LOL...

Having said that, a few weeks ago something happened to me and I just decided that I was gonna give it a rest for a while (basically used to smoke on average one joint per day). Havent smoked in 3 weeks, unless you count the two puffs I took on Saturday night when Lewis (YAY) pounded the snot out of washup-rapist-ear-biter Mike Tyson...

But I guess 13 years of smoking every day wasnt enough to get me addicted...LOL...

I'd just like to see a 'war on drugs' discussion where weed doesn't even get mentioned...lets talk about the really harmful stuff!
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Old 06-10-2002, 02:36 PM   #38
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Re: drugs drugs drugs

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox


I'd just like to see a 'war on drugs' discussion where weed doesn't even get mentioned...lets talk about the really harmful stuff!
Thatís a very interesting comment. I know for the most part marijuana is the safest form of drug but consider this,
Iíve watched a very close friend almost die from alcohol poisoning Ė to see them and not able to do anything about it but call 911.
Iíve watched several close friends undergo a very very scary and rough outing with a stash of marijuana that was spiked and those unsuspecting people going on a very rough journey.
So to say leave the discussion to the really harmful stuff is interesting because although you wouldnít expect it, it CAN be just as harmful as other drugs and maybe some of you will say trust your supplier or know who you are getting your stuff from etc., but to that Iíll say that in this case, the supplier was a close friend who apparently knew not what he hadÖ

Sorry just a comment, no drug is totally harmless if you ask me. Iím not saintly when it comes to this stuff but I have seen some ugly things happen for just having some harmless weedÖ
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Old 06-10-2002, 07:51 PM   #39
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After Prohibition ended and alcohol became legal again, consumption levels skyrocketed by 300%! While the Netherlands has had success in its drug program, the United States in some ways is a different culture. I feel that a similar program in the USA could lead to mass consumption similar to the end of prohibition. The problem in the USA is also one that is cultural. I don't think you find the same obsession and quest for alcohol among underage students in the Netherlands that you see in childern in the USA. I'm sure this could be changed eventually, but I think it would take two or three generations and a lot of chaos. The reasons these drugs remain illegal is that people fear how a 300% increase in drug use would effect society.
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Old 06-10-2002, 08:11 PM   #40
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I don't think you find the same obsession and quest for alcohol among underage students in the Netherlands that you see in childern in the USA.
You gotta be joking me. If you think that teenage drinking is only happening in the US then you are sadly not looking very hard. The only reason underage drinking is higher in the US is because they, for some reason, see that at 21 you should start drinking (but can start smoking at 18) If you go to many europeon countries you will see many underage people drinking. But there drinking is much more social and is under parent supervision.
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