The War on Christmas

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nbcrusader said:


I guess you summed up the whole point of this thread with one question. The word is a normal part of US culture. And now you want to excluded it. :applaud:

It's part of your US culture not everyone's. But I think you and Sting have shown a great example of thinking everyone fits under your umbrella.
 
randhail said:


Because Christmas is the name of the holiday, therefore it should be called a Christmas party. No one is forcing anyone to say or use it, but people do and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

It's the name of the holiday on December 25th. It's the name of the holiday you celebrate, but not all. Other religions have holidays around the same time. No school is having the holiday on December 25th so for you to say it's the name of THE holiday is arrogance.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


It's the name of the holiday on December 25th. It's the name of the holiday you celebrate, but not all. Other religions have holidays around the same time. No school is having the holiday on December 25th so for you to say it's the name of THE holiday is arrogance.

Arrogance? Um ok.

Then why stop at Christmas? What if I don't like the name of Independence Day or Halloween? Where does it stop?

For all the non Christmas celebrators out there, why not make them go to school on that day? Surely they wouldn't mind since christmas means nothing to them.
 
randhail said:


Arrogance? Um ok.

Then why stop at Christmas? What if I don't like the name of Independence Day or Halloween? Where does it stop?
Here you are being ridiculous again. How do these holidays exclude anyone? These are not religious holidays.
randhail said:

For all the non Christmas celebrators out there, why not make them go to school on that day? Surely they wouldn't mind since christmas means nothing to them.

Because we don't get school off for just Christmas. If you haven't noticed Christmas isn't 2 weeks to a month long.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Here you are being ridiculous again. How do these holidays exclude anyone? These are not religious holidays.


Because we don't get school off for just Christmas. If you haven't noticed Christmas isn't 2 weeks to a month long.


Halloween does have some religious ideas behind it. Since when does Christmas exclude anyone? Anyone is welcome to participate in the giving of gifts and spending time with family and friends. It's excluding to only those that want to be excluded and to those that want to ruin other people's fun.

I'm willing to bet that Christmas is the primary reason for getting time off. Schools realize how important that time is to people. In addition, the Church's Christmas season is a month long celebration after the actual day has passed so is a month long.
 
randhail said:



Halloween does have some religious ideas behind it.
In today's context? No.

randhail said:


Since when does Christmas exclude anyone? Anyone is welcome to participate in the giving of gifts and spending time with family and friends. It's excluding to only those that want to be excluded and to those that want to ruin other people's fun.
Um no it's excluding to those who don't believe in Jesus. Have you forgot that it's the celebration of Jesus' birth?
randhail said:

In addition, the Church's Christmas season is a month long celebration after the actual day has passed so is a month long.
Wait, you mean your church is still allowed to celebrate Christmas? That's a relief because for awhile there the way some of you were talking I thought liberals stole Christmas from you.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Um no it's excluding to those who don't believe in Jesus. Have you forgot that it's the celebration of Jesus' birth?

It is not excluding anyone unless they want to be excluded. Have you ever been to a Christmas party where only Christians were invited? No one is asking for proof of belief in Jesus at the door of these parties. I haven't seen a bouncer trying to convert people either. It's about having a goodtime and enjoying yourself. If people are incapable of realizing that and enjoying themself, well then I might see the need to exclude people like that. It's simply part of our culture...well unless the pissing and moaning gets to people and they change the name.

We have a work Christmas party that Hindus and Buddhists and non-religious people attend. How is that excluding anyone? No one is
 
randhail said:


It is not excluding anyone unless they want to be excluded. Have you ever been to a Christmas party where only Christians were invited? No one is asking for proof of belief in Jesus at the door of these parties. I haven't seen a bouncer trying to convert people either. It's about having a goodtime and enjoying yourself. If people are incapable of realizing that and enjoying themself, well then I might see the need to exclude people like that. It's simply part of our culture...well unless the pissing and moaning gets to people and they change the name.

We have a work Christmas party that Hindus and Buddhists and non-religious people attend. How is that excluding anyone? No one is

Then how is it a Christmas party when it isn't on Christmas day and you aren't celebrating the birth of Christ. If it's just a party and happens to be during the holidays, call it a holiday party.

There's no bigotry or persecution in doing so. The only thing going on here is people's stubborness to hold on to something and them wanting to blame liberals, or the PC movement, etc. It's a game they love to play. But by your own admission the party you described above has nothing to do with Christmas, but the debate has everything to do with their game.
 
Sherry Darling said:
Mmmmm....I am treading lightly hear. A lot has been said that I agree with (thanks Angie! :yes: and Yolland :love: ). A few quickies :flirt: that I think might benefit this debate.

1. Sting, may I ask when the last time you were involved with public schools? I don't know if you have kids, or were/are a teacher, administrator. If you were/are any of these things, my feeling is you'd know it DOES cause problems.

2. Might we do well to distinguish between bigotry (being left out, disrespected, disliked for one's faith, whatever it is) which I could agree does happen to all faith groups at different times in the US, Christians included...and persecution, which would have to be more serious in my definition of the word (involving actual STATE restriction of rights, violence, being jailed, arrested, etc, as happens often to Christians in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etd --see Amnesty Intl)--and those of other faiths in many other parts of the world).

3. What do we mean by USE of the word Christmas, exactly? There's a difference between somone casually saying "Merry Christmas" at the water cooler and having signs up all over the lunch room saying "You're invited to our annual Christmas Party".

4. A-Wanderer: A Jews a religion or a race? (Yes, this is a trick question. :p)

Yes, please describe to me the horror and persecution that has resulted from calling Christmas, Christmas. From calling a party a Christmas party. Do you know any child that was adversly effected by this from the begining of the formation of this country to today? If so explain how. There is simply no reason to change an American cultural tradition to satisfy the tiny minority of people who want to wipe out anything that might remotely refer to christianity in Goverment places or schools.

The same people who want a Christmas Party to be refered to as a Holiday Party would obviously be offended if BONO sang "I Wish You A Merry Christmas" during 11 O'Clock Tick Tock as he did during the Pre-War tour in December 1982.
 
I'm more amused by all the people here who are offended by calling something a "Holiday Party," since we're so happy to trivialize what offends people.

Melon
 
Wow this thread is still going strong. Much fuss about nothing methinks.

We celebrate Halloween here and that's not a Christian festival. So, no I don't think celebrating Christmas is discriminating against non-Christians.
 
STING2 said:




The same people who want a Christmas Party to be refered to as a Holiday Party would obviously be offended if BONO sang "I Wish You A Merry Christmas" during 11 O'Clock Tick Tock as he did during the Pre-War tour in December 1982.

Um, no. These are two entirely different venues, two entirely different things.

You're reaching now.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


It's part of your US culture not everyone's. But I think you and Sting have shown a great example of thinking everyone fits under your umbrella.

What do you mean MY US culture?? This is really stretching.

What are you after? A gray, secular culture that is completely devoid of all the elements that make up our culture today (because there are no completely universal elements)?

You've essentially validated the author's argument by saying "Christmas doesn't apply to everyone, therefor we should completely remove it from public view (Christians must justify their use of the word Christmas).
 
nbcrusader said:


What do you mean MY US culture?? This is really stretching.
Not stretching, how much does Christmas mean to Muslim, Jewish, athiest etc Americans?

nbcrusader said:

You've essentially validated the author's argument by saying "Christmas doesn't apply to everyone, therefor we should completely remove it from public view (Christians must justify their use of the word Christmas).

No I'm not saying remove it from public view. Some of you are missing the point. I'm not saying remove Christmas from anything except where one doesn't have a choice to participate. Like schools. Have a party that celebrates the holidays, and let the children celebrate their faith's holiday at home, in church, malls or wherever.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
No I'm not saying remove it from public view. Some of you are missing the point. I'm not saying remove Christmas from anything except where one doesn't have a choice to participate. Like schools. Have a party that celebrates the holidays, and let the children celebrate their faith's holiday at home, in church, malls or wherever.

So, a part of our collective culture (being the melting pot that we are) is to be singled out for removal from public view? Christmas parties were not instituted as part of some "right-wing" Christian agenda. But their removal (even requiring justification of saying the word) sure does seem to be part of someone's agenda.
 
nbcrusader said:


So, a part of our collective culture (being the melting pot that we are) is to be singled out for removal from public view?
I just said, I'm not asking for any removal from public view.
nbcrusader said:

Christmas parties were not instituted as part of some "right-wing" Christian agenda. But their removal (even requiring justification of saying the word) sure does seem to be part of someone's agenda.

You are right they weren't instituted as part of any agenda. They were instituted out of lack of understanding for the minority. Just like Sting has pointed out, majority rule.

And if you call an all encompassing holiday party an agenda move than so be it, I guess the agenda is for everyone to feel welcome or involved. So that some don't have to go home and wonder why their religion means less in this country. Why, just because there's less than them.

I really find it funny that people are getting bent out of shape over this. It's just a move to make schools and offices welcoming to everyone, the party doesn't change, no one's loosing christmas. You'll still have your big mall and greeting card Christmas.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

I just said, I'm not asking for any removal from public view.


You are right they weren't instituted as part of any agenda. They were instituted out of lack of understanding for the minority. Just like Sting has pointed out, majority rule.

And if you call an all encompassing holiday party an agenda move than so be it, I guess the agenda is for everyone to feel welcome or involved. So that some don't have to go home and wonder why their religion means less in this country. Why, just because there's less than them.

I really find it funny that people are getting bent out of shape over this. It's just a move to make schools and offices welcoming to everyone, the party doesn't change, no one's loosing christmas. You'll still have your big mall and greeting card Christmas.

Why change anything? Its worked for centuries. No one is being persecuted or being killed because of a "CHRISTMAS PARTY". But as NBC said, the move to change such long standing American cultural traditions does smack of a certain agenda by a particular group. The majority of people in this country should not be forced to swallow a small minority's view on political correctness.

I don't recall anyone deciding not to come to the United States because people there Celebrate Christmas and have "Christmas Parties" at the office and school as opposed to calling it a "Holiday Party". The fact is, whether its ones faith or not, Christmas is a part of American culture and I certainly would not want a culture in another country to change just because it was not in line with my particular religion or lack of one.
 
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.

Do people know that gift giving in America used to occur on New Years Eve? The department stores successfully convinced the public to change their habits in the late 19th century. American culture is fluid, by design.

Melon
 
melon said:
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.

Do people know that gift giving in America used to occur on New Years Eve? The department stores successfully convinced the public to change their habits in the late 19th century. American culture is fluid, by design.

Melon

Most people from other countries have told me that America does have culture, most of it borrowed yes, but there is a culture there. I don't know how anyone could claim that Christmas is not a part of American culture. Some people would certainly like to make it that way. Christmas is just as much apart of American culture as Hogmanay is apart of Scotish Culture, although its true that Hogmanay is exclusive to Scotish Culture where Christmas is apart of many cultures around the world.

Just look at how many Santa's, Christmas Trees, Nativity set ups, and other things associated with Christmas you will see this Christmas and then tell yourself that Christmas is not apart of American Culture.

Yes, most people celebrate it and experience it. Typically any anthropoligist would consider such level of activity by so many people to indeed be apart of the culture. Oh, there are plenty of people who are not "White" who will be celebrating Christmas this year and I'll be celebrating Christmas with several of them. The troops in Iraq will also be celebrating Christmas as well. I have not heard any non-Christian troops complain about dining halls doing something special on December 25 the past couple of years in Iraq.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Right, change is evil, especially when the status quo is in your favor.:|

Right, the status quo, Christmas, the Christmas party, is EVIL.
 
STING2 said:


Right, the status quo, Christmas, the Christmas party, is EVIL.

No. Christmas is great. Have Christmas on the sidewalks, on TV, Church, your house, malls, wherever you want because all the places you have choice as to if you are going to be there or not. But in school where you don't have a choice, don't force the children of other faiths feel inferior or excluded. I'm sorry that a hard concept for you to understand, but it happens.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


No. Christmas is great. Have Christmas on the sidewalks, on TV, Church, your house, malls, wherever you want because all the places you have choice as to if you are going to be there or not. But in school where you don't have a choice, don't force the children of other faiths feel inferior or excluded. I'm sorry that a hard concept for you to understand, but it happens.

Ah no, I never heard of anyone feeling inferior because of a "Christmas Party". Thats the way its been in this country for centuries. Its part of the culture, why is that so difficult for you to understand. To what degree do we have to go to make every single minority feel "included". This is insane. It was not problem 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, and is really only and issue now because a small minority has decided to whine about it. Anyone can celebrate at a christmas party, you don't have to be a Christian to enjoy it. Hell, some Muslims in Palestine attend Christmas mass every year.

Plus, your not really helping childern deal with their insecurities by refering to a party as a holiday party rather than a Christmas party.
 
randhail said:
Because Christmas is the name of the holiday, therefore it should be called a Christmas party.
This is, in fact, more or less my own view, and I have already stated it in this thread. What I find disingenuous and troubling is the way the "no name change" camp keeps disingenuously dancing back and forth between the very different arguments that 1)calling it "holiday" is a well-intentioned, but ultimately rather empty gesture whose omission would harm no one (which I quite agree with) and 2)calling it "holiday" amounts to a sinister, bigoted persecution of "Christians" by some vengeful minority or another, which I did--and do--find laughably absurd.

It is also quite disingenuous how several of you keep conveniently sliding back and forth between the--again--very different positions that (1) Christmas is a holiday celebrating the birth of Christ (whence dubbing it "holiday" amounts to an affront to believing Christians), and (2) Christmas has been bastardized into a hollow family shopping fest devoid of any religious content anyway, so really there is no "excuse" for everyone not to embrace it. To which my response as a Jew is: not my fault, and not my problem, either. I will continue to regard it as a holy day for Christians (and therefore to not celebrate it), and will leave it up to believing Christians to decide if they wish to distance themselves from the Santa'n'shopping fest that (in my opininon insultingly) goes by their Savior's name. If I were a Christian, I would want THAT holiday (which I have nothing against, either) renamed!

And I'd still like to hear nb's answer to the question below.

yolland said:
Really? If you lived in Dearborn and all this actually transpired, you'd have no problem sending your kids to school on Christmas and Easter, with a full day of classes on Good Friday?

A "bastardized" holiday, such as Christmas has become in Western culture--and I sympathize fully with devout Christians who lament this--is NOT the same thing as a secular holiday. I have yet to meet an observant Jew who puts up a Christmas tree and sings carols at home. This is not, of course, because we hate or reject Christians, but because the recognition of December 25th as a holiday is simply not part of our religious heritage.

Personally, I have never had a huge problem with the fact that my religion is completely ignored by our national holiday calendar. While I appreciate the good intentions behind euphemisms like "holiday party" and singing the dreidl song etc., they don't make up for the fact that my kids still have to go to school during Chanukah anyway. I will admit that having to work on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (which I try very hard to avoid, but sometimes cannot) does sometimes set my teeth on edge. But I am not whining "bigotry" or "religious persecution" about it. Nor do I pitch a fit when kosher meals are not provided at public functions. Nor did my brother boo-hoo and moan about the lack of accommodations for Jewish observance when he was stationed at various bases while in the Air Force.

Finally, I would suggest we all consider cooling our heels and letting this senselessly overblown argument drop before we ruin our prospects for having a well-meaning and sincere "Happy Holidays" thread here in FYM come December. Will we really need to descend to the level of having a bunch of separate greeting threads for the tiny handful of posters who don't celebrate "Christmas," lest anyone have to put up with the PC indignity of wishing anyone "Happy Chanukah" or whatever in a thread "meant" for Christians?

~ Peace All. :heart:
 
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Originally posted by Sherry Darling 4. A-Wanderer: A Jews a religion or a race? (Yes, this is a trick question. :p) [/B]
Different situation we are not talking about Judaism, we are talking about Islam. What I said about Islam holds true for most other religions.

Is any of the following a race?
Christianity
Hinduism
Buddhism
Paganism

Islam is just like most other religions, in that it is not synonymous with race.
 
melon said:
But the beauty of America is that it is inherently cultureless. We have probably the only genuinely syncretic culture on the planet. So I do tend to disagree with people who make claims that "Christmas is a part of American culture." Maybe white culture, but that's just one of many cultures that have been in America for the last 225 years.

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You disagree that Christmas is part of American culture, but then state that it is one of many. Ask yourself, how did these secular Christmas parties get started in school? The evil Pat Robertson? Or long standing traditions embedded in our culture?
 
yolland said:

This is, in fact, more or less my own view, and I have already stated it in this thread. What I find disingenuous and troubling is the way the "no name change" camp keeps disingenuously dancing back and forth between the very different arguments that 1)calling it "holiday" is a well-intentioned, but ultimately rather empty gesture whose omission would harm no one (which I quite agree with) and 2)calling it "holiday" amounts to a sinister, bigoted persecution of "Christians" by some vengeful minority or another, which I did--and do--find laughably absurd.

It is also quite disingenuous how several of you keep conveniently sliding back and forth between the--again--very different positions that (1) Christmas is a holiday celebrating the birth of Christ (whence dubbing it "holiday" amounts to an affront to believing Christians), and (2) Christmas has been bastardized into a hollow family shopping fest devoid of any religious content anyway, so really there is no "excuse" for everyone not to embrace it. To which my response as a Jew is: not my fault, and not my problem, either. I will continue to regard it as a holy day for Christians (and therefore to not celebrate it), and will leave it up to believing Christians to decide if they wish to distance themselves from the Santa'n'shopping fest that (in my opininon insultingly) goes by their Savior's name. If I were a Christian, I would want THAT holiday (which I have nothing against, either) renamed!

And I'd still like to hear nb's answer to the question below.



Finally, I would suggest we all consider cooling our heels and letting this senselessly overblown argument drop before we ruin our prospects for having a well-meaning and sincere "Happy Holidays" thread here in FYM come December. Will we really need to descend to the level of having a bunch of separate greeting threads for the tiny handful of posters who don't celebrate "Christmas," lest anyone have to put up with the PC indignity of wishing anyone "Happy Chanukah" or whatever in a thread "meant" for Christians?

~ Peace All. :heart:

There is no need to suddenly call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party unless of course you agree with that "vengeful minority" obssessed with removing anything that is even remotely christian from every school and building in the country. If its been called Christmas for the past 200 years, there is no need to change the name. No one died or suffered because it was a Christmas Party rather than a Holiday Party.
 
STING2 said:
There is no need to suddenly call a Christmas Party a Holiday Party unless of course you agree with that "vengeful minority" obssessed with removing anything that is even remotely christian from every school and building in the country.
:huh: Is it truly then your belief that teachers invoking ideals like inclusiveness, interreligious harmony, and considerateness--however misguidedly--as their reasoning for doing so are lying anti-Christian bigots, who are in truth motivated by nothing more than a desire to spit in Christianity's face? Please tell me it is not. I know you are a conservative fellow STING, but that strikes me as an extraordinarily harsh and uncharitable position to take on the matter. Are you really that deeply suspicious of their intentions?

BTW, there is nothing "sudden" about such practices, either. When I went to public school in not-so-librul-or-irreligious Itta Bena, Mississippi in the 70s, we often had such (in my view) well-intended and fun-for-all, albeit tokenish "holiday" parties, complete with the dreidl song and cardboard menorah decorations, as well as a Christmas tree, manger and all the mistletoe stuff. And I never heard a Christian student (which was virtually everyone except me; it's a Baptist stronghold) complain.
 
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