najeena
War Child
Irvine511 said:
hopefully, the elections in 2006 and in 2008 will eliminate the need for a theocracy watch.
until then, i stand, ever vigilant.
Here, here! Your vigilance is appreciated.
The War on Christmas
- Thread starter the iron horse
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Here, here! Your vigilance is appreciated.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
These threads make me laugh.
People think persecution is changing a Christmas party to a holiday party?
Seriously, some of you need some big time perspective adjustments.
The real war on Christmas should be taken up against the retail and greeting card industry, not liberals.
The whiny "persecuted" Christian right need to take a look in the mirror because little baby santa, I mean Jesus is crying.
This thread is a joke.
People think persecution is changing a Christmas party to a holiday party?
Seriously, some of you need some big time perspective adjustments.
The real war on Christmas should be taken up against the retail and greeting card industry, not liberals.
The whiny "persecuted" Christian right need to take a look in the mirror because little baby santa, I mean Jesus is crying.
This thread is a joke.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
I'm still waiting for an actual example of persecuted Christians in the United States.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
martha said:
Don't hold your breath!!!
Sherry Darling
New Yorker
randhail said:
I appreciate the clarification. However, the fact that schooling is mandatory is why I feel your arguement that we can just send a kid to the library during the Christmas party isn't Constitutional, or ethical.
AvsGirl41
New Yorker
phanan said:
Very good article.
I will point out that this year, they are allowing them to have their float.
But no word on if the Jewish, Muslim or pagan communities get one though!
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
martha said:
Can we give examples of bigotry?
Even here?
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine511 said:
I hope you appreciate how your arguments against other forms of bigotry are not dismissed as "playing the victim".
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
Can we agree that bigotry and persecution are 2 different things?
indra said:
Did I say the United States was not a country of many faiths? Did I claim the United Sates was exclusively a Christian Country.
There are small cultural traditions in this country that do not persecute people of other faiths and should not be changed simply to please a parents obsessive political views. Can you name anyone who has suffered over the past two centurys in the United States because December 25 through early January has been known as and refered to as Christmas Time!
BonoVoxSupastar said:All I have to say is boo hoo
No one's taking your trees or mangers from your home or church, if that happens then it will be an issue.
Sting let me ask you this. Have you ever gone to a school or worked in an office that had a Jewish holiday party, Muslim holiday party?
Yep, roll your eyes.
Has anyone suffered because we called December 25 Christmas or announced they were having a Christmas party etc. Most Americans have for decades or centuries celebrated and refered to Christmas in such ways. I don't think anyone is harmed by that. There is no need to simply refer to it as the "holidays".
yolland said:
Meaning what? That as a Jewish American, I am the equivalent of a tourist in a foreign land? There have been Jews here since colonial times, and Jewish Americans fought and died in the Revolution (and all our other wars) right alongside the Christians and secularists. Even if that weren't true, it has zero relevance to who "owns" the American cultural legacy. We all do.
Having often had to either work or be in school during Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (and that's leaving alone all the lesser Jewish holidays unacknowledged by national holiday legislation), I find it hard to be sympathetic to someone going ballistic about how not being able to listen to instrumental carols in school constitutes "religious persecution." I agree with VertigoGal, many of those restrictions are laughably absurd, but the proper locus of blame is PC run amuck, not some nefarious minority plot to take over and run Christians out of the country.
Religious minorities support political secularism because we fear religious majoritarianism (with good historical reason too) and because we believe it is ultimately the fairest way to preserve freedom of religion for everyone--not because we wish to subject Christians or anyone else to everything we've been through. (Not that Christians are strangers to religious persecution either: think Ireland under British rule, the Puritans and the Huguenots, Greek Orthodoxy under the Ottomans, Eastern Orthodox and everyone else under the Soviets, etc. etc....)
If the price of this protection is a little less of those collective national warm fuzzies to go around at holiday time, then so be it. We'll live. I don't need to live in Israel to feel like I belong to the culture around me, and I'd like it to stay that way.
Great, but Americans have been calling December 25 and the time around there "Christmas Time" for decades if not centuries. No one suffered or died because of that fact. There is simply no need to refer to the time period as strictly "holidays". Its always been refered to as Christmas Time and that should not change for the tiny minority that thinks they have the right to suddenly change a cultural tradition they don't like.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
STING2 said:
No one is saying don't call Christmas Christmas.
But a child who's not Christian who's going to a Christmas party at school and taking part in Christmas activities may be confused as to why his faith isn't being recognized.
No one's going to lose anything if they can't do Christmas at school. I mean come on.
Some of you are really losing sight as to what Christmas is about and what this country is about.
And the author of this book should step out of his or her little shell for one second and take a good look at themselves.
randhail
Rock n' Roll Doggie
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Have you been to a public school Christmas party? The one's I attended growing up didn't have a shred of religion in them. People brought in food and exchanged gifts. It wasn't about acting a nativity, it was about enjoying some good times with your friends.
Put yourself in the shoes of a 12 year-old, who has had Christmas parties throughout their schooling then they suddenly stop? This would a big thing for a 12 year-old. I personally would be pissed. It's like a company taking away a certain perk you've had for many years. People would be upset. Are we going to take away all the fun that children have because some people don't like it?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Then why not call it a holiday party? Seems pretty easy to me.randhail said:
So all the fun gets taken away when you change the name? Oh my...randhail said:
BonoVoxSupastar said:
No one has ever been converted to Christianity because they participated in a few Christmas activities at school. No one has been persecuted by this in the past. Its not been a problem in the past, and its only a problem now because of a small number of people who are using their non-christian beliefs as a way to stop cultural traditions that have been practiced for centuries.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
STING2 said:
So you've been a young Jewish child?
You know for sure no one's ever felt excluded. Wow your powers are amazing.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
STING2 said:
Not the point.
randhail
Rock n' Roll Doggie
BonoVoxSupastar said:
So you've been a young Jewish child?
You know for sure no one's ever felt excluded. Wow your powers are amazing.
What about the kids that feel excluded because they don't have a Christmas party?
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Instead of recognizing faith in Santa Claus?
No one is arguing for religious celebrations in school.
But the clear implication is that saying the word "Christmas" is some how violating someone's right to the extent that we should not use the word.
MsGiggles
War Child
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 905
"The holidays" is that time between Christmas and New Years - and Chanukah and Kwanzaa - and it's much easier to say "I'm going home for the holidays" rather than saying "I'm going home for Christmas and New Years"........
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
randhail said:
That's ridiculous. No one's excluded in a holiday party.
You have Christmas at home and church.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nbcrusader said:
Why do you have to use the word in school?
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I guess you summed up the whole point of this thread with one question. The word is a normal part of US culture. And now you want to excluded it.
randhail
Rock n' Roll Doggie
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Because Christmas is the name of the holiday, therefore it should be called a Christmas party. No one is forcing anyone to say or use it, but people do and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Is saying Christmas at school now like saying bomb on a airplane? Should the classroom be devoid of decorations too?
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
It is a complete and total myth! Racism against Muslims? Are they Pakistani, Arab, Persian or Malay? There is no Muslim race.FizzingWhizzbees said:
This is the absurdity that I hate, people classifying those who adhere to ideas as race. People are not genetically Muslim, there is nothing inherently racist about attacking Muslims ~ it is utterly wrong, violent and bigoted but it is not in itself racist. People who do attack
The blending of Islam into race is in itself a very effective ploy, it has enabled the adoption of racial and religious vilification laws that offer undue protection from criticism to Muslims by others but don't seem to be used when some Muslim groups start talking about nonbelievers in nasty sorts of ways - a specific cases iin Victoria is Daniel Scott and Daniel Naliah and the evangelical Catch the Fire ministries. They gave a talk about how to convert Muslims and talk to them about Christianity, they got dragged into court on charges under the new Racial and Religious Vilification laws. They were tried and have to pay 60,000 dollars for a published apology, they are refusing to do so and may face jail.
Now I don't agree with this lot, I am not a Christian but this case is disturbing. It demonstrates how freedom of speech can be curbed by religious groups when they use charges of racism as protection, it clouds the issues. It grants legal protection from criticism to ideas. It goes against the very concepts of free speech.
Fuck religious tolerance, I want my free speech to use or abuse however I see fit in my godless way.
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Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
nbcrusader said:
I guess you summed up the whole point of this thread with one question. The word is a normal part of US culture. And now you want to excluded it.
Oh! You've also summed it up! America is a Christian country, because this is clearly a normal part of your culture. However, due to the niggling little fact that America actually isn't a Christian country, you guys are annoyed that it's being stripped from you...your culture?
Sherry Darling
New Yorker
Mmmmm....I am treading lightly hear. A lot has been said that I agree with (thanks Angie! 
and Yolland ). A few quickies 
that I think might benefit this debate.
1. Sting, may I ask when the last time you were involved with public schools? I don't know if you have kids, or were/are a teacher, administrator. If you were/are any of these things, my feeling is you'd know it DOES cause problems.
2. Might we do well to distinguish between bigotry (being left out, disrespected, disliked for one's faith, whatever it is) which I could agree does happen to all faith groups at different times in the US, Christians included...and persecution, which would have to be more serious in my definition of the word (involving actual STATE restriction of rights, violence, being jailed, arrested, etc, as happens often to Christians in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etd --see Amnesty Intl)--and those of other faiths in many other parts of the world).
3. What do we mean by USE of the word Christmas, exactly? There's a difference between somone casually saying "Merry Christmas" at the water cooler and having signs up all over the lunch room saying "You're invited to our annual Christmas Party".
4. A-Wanderer: A Jews a religion or a race? (Yes, this is a trick question.)
and Yolland ). A few quickies that I think might benefit this debate.1. Sting, may I ask when the last time you were involved with public schools? I don't know if you have kids, or were/are a teacher, administrator. If you were/are any of these things, my feeling is you'd know it DOES cause problems.
2. Might we do well to distinguish between bigotry (being left out, disrespected, disliked for one's faith, whatever it is) which I could agree does happen to all faith groups at different times in the US, Christians included...and persecution, which would have to be more serious in my definition of the word (involving actual STATE restriction of rights, violence, being jailed, arrested, etc, as happens often to Christians in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, etd --see Amnesty Intl)--and those of other faiths in many other parts of the world).
3. What do we mean by USE of the word Christmas, exactly? There's a difference between somone casually saying "Merry Christmas" at the water cooler and having signs up all over the lunch room saying "You're invited to our annual Christmas Party".
4. A-Wanderer: A Jews a religion or a race? (Yes, this is a trick question.
)
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Angela Harlem said:
Oh! You've also summed it up! America is a Christian country, because this is clearly a normal part of your culture. However, due to the niggling little fact that America actually isn't a Christian country, you guys are annoyed that it's being stripped from you...your culture?
You've oversimplified my statement to miss my point. Christianity is part of US culture - that doesn't make it the sole religion of US culture. Have you missed all the statements and suggestions about Christians being a majority in the US?
So the niggling little fact is that BVS's question goes to the heart of the desire to eliminate the word Christmas as one that needs to be justified for use in today's culture.
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