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Old 03-28-2002, 05:46 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
And, btw, i do not actually believe abortion should be made illegal, but only because there are too many people in this world, and due to the stupidity of some women, prolly should be kept legal to control more stupid people from being born.
Why is it only the stupidity of some women? After all, it takes both a man and a woman for a woman to become pregnant, so surely if we're blaming the woman for having unprotected sex, it has to be at least half the man's fault also.

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Oh, and I'm not against the term Feminazi either. There are SOOOOOOOO many "women" (actually male wannabes) who fit that description!


I thought we (as in everyone here) had all agreed that the use of the word 'nazi' other than to describe those who subscribe to fascist ideologies is completely wrong. But you think it's okay to use the term to describe women who are pro-choice? Would it still be wrong in every other case or are there other exceptions?

I suppose if I'm pro-choice then I fit Rush's description. I do volunteer work for anti-racism campaigns, but apparently I can be compared to the most racist ideology imaginable, because of my beliefs about abortion. I don't want to start an argument here but I do find that really offensive.

Also, why use the phrase 'male wannabes'? Feminists don't want to be men, they just want women to be treated equally with men. We want to be paid the same as men for the same work; we want to be fairly represented in government or any other important decision-making body; we want to be able to have children and know that it won't ruin our careers; we want to be free to walk down the street without fear of being attacked; we don't want a world where one in four women is physically attacked by her partner, or where one in six women is raped in her lifetime. Please don't include me in the 'male wannabes' category, I'm proud to be a woman.
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Old 03-28-2002, 09:20 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
I'm female. Does that mean if i am a siamese twin, i have the right to butcher my twin, simply because i have the right to make my own decision? Its the SAME thing. They are connected, but it is NOT your body!!!!!!!
And, btw, i do not actually believe abortion should be made illegal, but only because there are too many people in this world, and due to the stupidity of some women, prolly should be kept legal to control more stupid people from being born. And of course, it must always be legal in certain circumstances.
I just wish people would stop denying that they are, in fact, killing someone.
Oh, and I'm not against the term Feminazi either. There are SOOOOOOOO many "women" (actually male wannabes) who fit that description!

I agree with you Miss MacPhisto. It took a lot of guts to say that. Good for you. I believe abortion IS killing someone, and just because so many people don't want to hear that because they want to do it anyway and not feel guilty doesn't change the fact that a life has been ended. Leaving it up to 'each person's indivudual conscience' doesn't work, because some people have no conscience. I heard about a guy on the news who killed a dude for his jacket, and said it shouldn't be against the law, because in HIS OPINION and his conscience he hadn't done anything wrong. That is the type of mentality the 'anything goes, if it feels good, do it' philosophy breeds.

Yes, a baby may have been created by a 'stupid' woman and some irresponsible asshole she was with, but that is not the baby's fault, it's BOTH their faults, and it does not deserve to die for someone's stupidity, or their convenience and selfishness. My philosophy is not a political or a religious one, it's common sense- it's alive, you kill it, it's dead, therefore murder, therefore wrong, end of story. Now I know I will be flamed, but I don't care, there is nothing I feel so strongly about. Never has something that should be so clearly and obviously wrong justified by so many for such shallow reasons. I actually knew a couple who got rid of a baby because the pregnancy would interfere with a cruise they had planned. With parents like that, maybe the kid was better off dead. Sad.

Too many people use it as a form of birth control too. Another reason I oppose it is because there really is no good reason for one except rape, incest or threat to mother's life. Those combined account for about 2% of all abortions in this country, which means 98% of the babies killed are eliminated for purely selfish reasons, such as, girl stops taking pills thinking if she gets pregnant her boyfriend will marry her. She finds out he's pissed and ditches her, then all of a sudden she's this 'pitiful' and 'helpless' girl in 'trouble' with nowhere to turn but the abortion clinic. That's the kind of crap that sickens me.

As a woman, I know that there are only about 2 or 3 days a month you can get pregnant, and in that time, you can use birth control, or self control. Because I know how actually hard it is to get pregnant when you are trying makes me LESS sympathetic towards 'unplanned pregnancies' I agree with Fred Durst on this one, though I hate his music. A girl got pregnant by him, and though the didn't like her or want to marry her, he vowed to support the child. He said, 'sometimes the best things in life are not 'planned' but the surprises! I believe people could make do with the baby if they really wanted to, unless they are too greedy and selfish make room for the life they have created.

I also find it interesting that some of the same people who cry 'choice' for abortion want to deny others choices such as gun ownership,(no I do not like guns just making a point here) not wearing a seat belt and smoking. If a choice is a choice it should go for everything or nothing or it's irrelevant. Or, you could just call your 'choice' by its real name - infanticide!

Whew. Thank goodness for the subject of this thread, or I know I would find myself called the 'n' word, which is usually overused an all-purpose putdown for those who can't think of anything else to say, and no it is not funny.


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Old 03-28-2002, 09:44 AM   #23
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Originally posted by Elvis:
I dont care about liberals,
I dont care about consveratives,
I think they're all a bunch of jackasses just trying to shove their fucking view down other peoples throats.

I totally agree with this statement! It's true! My opnions come from what I think and feel, and are not influenced by any politician or ideology. I have some beliefs on both 'sides' but that doesn't matter to me, I am what I am, and I do not follow any party's agenda.

Please don't ban me until I have uploaded the rest of my pics *ducks, runs*

[This message has been edited by *Stormy* (edited 03-28-2002).]
 
Old 03-28-2002, 02:32 PM   #24
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I'm not going to flame you Stormy, honest! I really respect your beliefs but if you have never gone through this, you can't assume what someone is feeling in this situation or what their motivation might be. While I don't approve of abortion as a method of birth control, I think taking that choice away from women is a very scary thing to imagine. It won't make women any more likely to use birth control or behave responsibly. It will cause the births of many, many unwanted, unloved children and cause desperate women to risk their lives getting illegal abortions.

Quote:
I believe abortion IS killing someone, and just because so many people don't want to hear that because they want to do it anyway and not feel guilty doesn't change the fact that a life has been ended.
Don't ever assume that a woman feels no guilt after an abortion. Some women are haunted by what they have done for the rest of their lives. That doesn't mean they regret their decision, but the guilt for most women is quite intense.


Quote:
Yes, a baby may have been created by a 'stupid' woman and some irresponsible asshole she was with, but that is not the baby's fault, it's BOTH their faults, and it does not deserve to die for someone's stupidity, or their convenience and selfishness.
To assume that every abortion is the result of a stupid woman and an irresponsible asshole is just an amazing generalization that I find really insulting. Not every woman with an unplanned pregnancy is stupid and why would you assume that the man is irresponsible or an asshole? I happen to know more than one man who begged their girlfriends not to have an abortion, trying to take full responsiblity.

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Too many people use it as a form of birth control too.
This I strongly agree with.

Quote:
As a woman, I know that there are only about 2 or 3 days a month you can get pregnant, and in that time, you can use birth control, or self control. Because I know how actually hard it is to get pregnant when you are trying makes me LESS sympathetic towards 'unplanned pregnancies'
Well, technically yes but some women are only fertile for only 24 hours, others for 2,3 or 4 days. Unless you are willing to chart your cycle, which is very time consuming, you really can't pinpoint exactly when you are fertile, especially in your teens or early 20's when we tend to be irregular. Women who use natural family planning will tell that it takes quite a few cycles and lots of instruction before you become familiar enough with your body to pinpoint your fertile days. Throw in the fact that some women don't ovulate every month and there you go. A less than exact science.

Birth control fails. Even women who take the pill correctly have gotten pregnant. Condoms break, IUD's fail, the Depo shot doesn't work for every woman. Should she be blamed in that instance? And don't assume that it will never happen to you. I don't know your circumstances but just let me say, you don't know what you will feel until it happens.

I had to sit in an abortion clinic very recently with a close relative who had been celibate for 3 years and got pregnant the very first time she had sex again, using a condom. They were both responsible, used birth control and she still ended up pregnant.

Quote:
I believe people could make do with the baby if they really wanted to, unless they are too greedy and selfish make room for the life they have created.
I don't even know where to start on this one. A baby is not something you "make do" with. If a child is not wanted, he/she will sense this. Some people think that if you feed and clothe them, everything will be alright. A child needs more than material things and if a women is not mature enough or yes, too selfish, to give this love to a child, she should consider another option. How would you feel if your parents told you they never wanted you but thought it was their responsibility to "make do" with you because they had unprotected sex? A child should be brought into this world out of love, not obligation.

Not everyone who makes the decision to have sex is mature enough to deal with the responsibility of a child. When faced with a 13 year old girl who is pregnant, do you tell her to "make do" with what she's done? What 13 year old is capable of raising a child or even taking care of herself properly during a pregnancy? I was 18 and married when I had my first son and I was far from ready.

I know there are other choices besides abortion, adoption being my personal preference. But, I have seen this issue from all sides and I can't honestly say that I wouldn't choose abortion if I was faced with an unplanned pregnancy. I'm really setting myself up for a flame by admitting that but my right to choose is something I hold very dear.

And like I said, this is not a flame, more like a rebuttal to your post. I am not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice but I would never try to change the mind of someone who is pro-life. I just want to point out that there are 2 sides to every issue and neither side is completely right or completely wrong.

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Old 03-28-2002, 04:06 PM   #25
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Originally posted by icelady:
I'm sorry I don't mean to be slow or stupid or anything, but I thought this was a thread about using the term "NAZI". When exactly did it become an argument on Pro-Life exactly?

Sorry just wondering. I'm playing catchup
roughly...

Discussion on the word NAZI >>> discussion of the word Feminazi >>>discussion of abortion.

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Old 03-28-2002, 04:17 PM   #26
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Miss Macphisto: don't compare killing your twin brother to abortion. It's not the same thing.

Abortion in my obition IS a choice. (both parents or just the woman, either way)
It is a possibility - and it really is the woman's body and it's her business what she decides to do. And if she chooses to do so, it's definitely safer to do it in a clinic, than some ilegal stuff that can end up with some infections or serious medical trouble.
And i for one would never call a woman who had an abortion a murderer.

Having said that, i do feel that all options must be considered (raising the baby with the father, single parenting, your family helping you, adoption, foster care...) - and the abortion should be THE last thing on the list.

ps: To keep with the thread's topic - defnitely against the term Nazi anytime.

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 03-28-2002).]
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Old 03-28-2002, 04:48 PM   #27
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Yeah, this topic did kinda veer off course but that's not unheard of around here. I promise this will be my last contribution to the discussion.

Stormy, I did mention adoption at the end of my post and said that it was my preferred option in an unplanned pregnancy. But, with that said, this is a topic that can be debated endlessly. It should be added to the list with religion and politics.

I would prefer to keep you as a friend rather than debate you on something we both believe in so strongly so maybe we should agree to disagree and go on to the next subject.

Love ya too Stormy
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Old 03-28-2002, 04:52 PM   #28
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oh man...I know I shouldn't do this...I know this we're way off the intended topic an that this has already been discussed at great lengths here, and everybody has already made up their minds, etc, but.....
I'm curious, U2girl and anyone else, why you think abortion should be THE last choice if it is just a choice and never murder? If it's her body and her business, why shouldn't it be the first choice?
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Old 03-28-2002, 05:03 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:

Stormy, I did mention adoption at the end of my post and said that it was my preferred option in an unplanned pregnancy. But, with that said, this is a topic that can be debated endlessly. It should be added to the list with religion and politics.

I would prefer to keep you as a friend rather than debate you on something we both believe in so strongly so maybe we should agree to disagree and go on to the next subject.

Love ya too Stormy
Agreed. Add it to the list of taboo topics, along with Creed and hair! I should never have come to this forum. I get myself into enough trouble without issues like this.

 
Old 03-28-2002, 05:14 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
I'm curious, U2girl and anyone else, why you think abortion should be THE last choice if it is just a choice and never murder? If it's her body and her business, why shouldn't it be the first choice?
I think i understand what you mean - are you thinking "if it's a choice, why shouldn't they just go for it right away?"

Who's to know how many of the women who do abortions consider the other options (and possibly don't go through with the abortion) and how many initially go for that choice?

It should be the last choice because there are multiple choices, and all should be considered. That's what i meant.
The abortion may not be the choice used, but it's there.
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Old 03-28-2002, 05:42 PM   #31
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Originally posted by icelady:
I'm sorry I don't mean to be slow or stupid or anything, but I thought this was a thread about using the term "NAZI". When exactly did it become an argument on Pro-Life exactly?

Sorry just wondering. I'm playing catchup

Sorry, it's my fault - I started talking about Rush Limbaugh's use of the word 'feminazi' to describe women who are pro-choice. And then I had to get all caught up in why I disagree with that word and that led into a pro-choice/pro-life argument.

So, I'm sorry for the distraction and we can all get back to the original topic. And I'm sorry if people are offended by anything I said - I tend to have strong opinions and I'm not always the most tactful person in the world

*Fizz.
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Old 03-28-2002, 05:55 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Elvis:
I dont care about liberals,
I dont care about consveratives,
I think they're all a bunch of jackasses just trying to shove their fucking view down other peoples throats.
Am I allowed to quote myself? lol.

Read it. That's my position on religion, politics, morals, ethics, etc...

Do what's BEST FOR YOU, morally, ethically, and even religiously... but don't preach.

Live by example, because preaching will only turn someone off (if they have half a brain).

You wanna talk about abortion?
Abortion as birth control?
Abortion in the case of rape?
Abortion in the case of incest?
Abortion if it will cause the mother to die?
Abortion for science?

These are the questions to ask yourself (and many more), some will say yay to all, some will say nay to all, some will mix and match...
but thats my point, it's an individuals decision, and opinion.

When is the last time you squished a bug? or picked a flower?



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Old 03-29-2002, 03:30 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:
I don't even know where to start on this one. A baby is not something you "make do" with. If a child is not wanted, he/she will sense this. Some people think that if you feed and clothe them, everything will be alright. A child needs more than material things and if a women is not mature enough or yes, too selfish, to give this love to a child, she should consider another option. How would you feel if your parents told you they never wanted you but thought it was their responsibility to "make do" with you because they had unprotected sex? A child should be brought into this world out of love, not obligation.

you touched on a very important subject here. too many people have children for selfish reasons or by accident and end up just taking care of them because they feel they have to, not because they want to.
i would go on a limb as to say that most, but not all, people do this. they just assume it's the next step in the ladder after commitment, just to 'have kids'. i think humans have come to the point where procreation for survival is not really needed anymore, especially with the exploding overpopulation problems apparent in a lot of places. so it's not like we 'need' to have children anymore rather we 'want' to have children.



[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 03-28-2002).]
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Old 03-29-2002, 03:36 AM   #34
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BAW, I love ya girl, but you have ignored one very important option: adoption. For all those unwanted babies, there ARE homes waiting. My neighbor and her husband are infertile, and have waited for years, because of abortion and illegitimate births being more acceptable now, fewer women are choosing adoption. Almost every paper has several ads of couples wanting to adopt and offering to pay the fees. These are always people with plenty of money too, who can afford the expense of the ads,the lawyers and legal fees. Your friend could have made someone very happy with that baby she aborted.

I HAVE known people who went through it, and that's why I feel this way. I knew two girls who tried to trick guys by going off the pill, then got 'desperate' when they found out he wasn't interested. I know a military man who all but forced a woman to get rid of their one night stand baby to avoid years of child support. Then there was the yuppie couple and the cruise, which was sickening.

I also have a nephew who lives in the garage apt., in my brother's yard. He works only part time at an auto parts store, and his girlfriend is unemployed. She got pregnant. They had the baby, and they are loving it. I give them all the love, support and gifts I can, because they are so much better- yes I said better- than the yuppie couple who claimed they 'couldn't afford it' because of the cruise! I have learned in my life that everyone, me included, tend to 'afford' the things they want to afford and make excuses for the rest. I went to several U2 concerts out of state, and didn't fix my bathtub or buy a new living room sofa. I may be irresponisble, but I admit it, I don't want anybody to hold my hand and pat me on the back and tell me it's okay because it's not.

I had a cousin who was a high school basketball star. He got his girlfriend, the coach's daughter, pregnant. Her parents urged her to do away with it, saying a baby at 17 would 'ruin her life.' Well, my aunt, the cousin's mother, said no one was killing her grandchild and agreed to totally finance the baby. That was many years ago. The girl went to college and became an executive in a bank. My cousin owns his own heating/air conditioning business. They got a divorce two years ago, but marriages that had much better beginnings have lasted less than the 24 years theirs did. Their daughter was a beautiful child, and is now a beautiful young woman working for an ad agency.

I know a young couple from New Mexico. The boy joined the navy to support his wife and baby, now he is in medical school and she is a nurse.

There are lots of options out there, and tommorrow never knows, but where there is life there is hope.

I'm saying, give the baby a chance. There IS adoption if you don't want it, but don't kill it.

I told the story of Fred Durst, now I will tell one I heard on Bono. Okay, like all the stories we hear, we don't know if it's true, but it goes like this: several of their road crew were annoyed to hear Ali was pregnant just before the kickoff of the big world tour, and said what bad timing it was. Apparently someone asked Bono if the baby was planned, and he said "God planned the baby" If that is true, what a beautiful attitude. Take the gift of life that has been given you, a gift so many like my neighbors long for, and give it a chance, with or without you.

Maybe not every girl is 'stupid' and not every guy is an 'asshole' true, but each baby is a unique individual that will never happen again, and though a mistake was made, the baby does not deserve to lose its life because of someone else's inconvenience.

BTW, you mentioned 13 year olds. I have an almost 13 year old daughter, and if she did get pregnant, I would gladly help her raise the baby. Not all parents are, but there is still adoption. I remember sitting in my high schoo gym floor and listening to the other teen girls discuss abortion. Most of us thought it was awful, and one girl even worked for an anti- abortion group. This one girl kept going, 'oh but what about all the poor little 14 year old....' and finally someone said, 'if she had kept her damn pants on she wouldn't have a thing to worry about' and she said 'you're right' and shut up. (This was NOT about rape, but sex) Or, as Rhett Butler said, cheer up, maybe you'll have an accident. Many pregnancies end in miscarriage, too.

I also have a problem with extremists the other way- I know personally a family who lives in a run down trailer and is expecting their sixth child, the oldest is in third grade. They have anti-abortion stickers all over their car, and I think they are having all those kids as some kind of political statement, which is not good either. I don't think they should have aborted some, just been more careful at times, but they didn't want to, and that's another story.


You know, I'm really not a right wing extremist. I actually believe drugs should be legalized (though I don't like them) and things like that. But abortion is one thing I cannot stomach. A living baby is cut up inside its mother's stomach. That is just evil. Maybe it all goes back to what Miss MacPhisto posted- it shouldn't be illegal, but please, at least admit someone is being killed here. Don't try to justify it as a 'choice' and pat the person on the back and tell them not to feel bad they haven't done anything wrong, because they have. They have killed their own child. I cannot image anything worse a woman could do. If you must do it, at least admit it and call it what it is.

I believe that if abortion were to be made illegal except in cases of rape, incest and health concerns, you would see people become less careless. If mistakes do happen, and they are not willing to accept the baby as the special surprise gift it is, there is adoption, someone else will.



[This message has been edited by *Stormy* (edited 03-28-2002).]
 
Old 03-29-2002, 03:54 AM   #35
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I'm sorry I don't mean to be slow or stupid or anything, but I thought this was a thread about using the term "NAZI". When exactly did it become an argument on Pro-Life exactly?

Sorry just wondering. I'm playing catchup
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Old 03-29-2002, 03:57 AM   #36
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It was about people calling each other NAZI because they disagree with each other's political views. Like many threads around this place, they do take detours depending on the subjects that come up along the way. Some of them get kind of funny. Not this one, though.
 
 

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