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Old 09-14-2001, 10:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
I'm not even Australian, but I shudder to think what would have happened to Australia had we not responded to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

Continue living in a peaceful utopia, OzAurora. You are lucky that your views are not an issue to the men and women of the Australian military that protects your own freedom and peace.
~U2Alabama
Amen, Bama!
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Old 09-14-2001, 10:46 AM   #22
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radiodivision:

I commend you for having a source refuting nearly everything I ever post in these forums, but who am I to doubt the words of Kuwaiti hospital staff and British soldiers, or for that matter the 15-year old daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S.? No where in the article does it PROVE that she lied!

And the fact remains that Iraq INVADED a SOVEREIGN NATION! Why? Among other things to provide more waterfront access to the oil-rich Persian Gulf.

I disagree with you on much of your defense of rogue nations.

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Old 09-14-2001, 12:16 PM   #23
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
radiodivision:

I commend you for having a source refuting nearly everything I ever post in these forums, but who am I to doubt the words of Kuwaiti hospital staff and British soldiers, or for that matter the 15-year old daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S.? No where in the article does it PROVE that she lied!

And the fact remains that Iraq INVADED a SOVEREIGN NATION! Why? Among other things to provide more waterfront access to the oil-rich Persian Gulf.

I disagree with you on much of your defense of rogue nations.

~U2Alabama
U2Bama,

There are several books that have talked about this which I would be more than happy to point out if you want to. I am NOT in any way defending any "rogue nations." I am just trying to point out some of the lies and deceptions which the PR industry (Hill & Knowlton in this case) in this country has spread to simply influence US action around the world. If you care about justice, truth, and human dignity (which I am sure you do), then you have to agree that we need to scrutinize every action and condemn those (on either side) which are outright unjust, untruthful and cruel. I do NOT support, approve of, or like the regimes that carry out such atrocities (e.g. Iraq, Lybia, Afghanistan) but I've read and seen enough to know not to take what's in the mainstream news as gospel. I don't deny that Iraq invaded Kuwait and that they carried out atrocities of their own but I always try to get the whole story, that's all.
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Old 09-14-2001, 12:18 PM   #24
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Well, they DID test chemical/biological warfare on their own people. I have photos from Newsweek to prove that.

I don't deny that and that should be rightfully condemned. Saddam Hussein IS and evil person, no doubt.

[This message has been edited by radiodivision (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Old 09-14-2001, 01:57 PM   #25
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yes bonoman i do live in canada, though not in ontario, just for your information.

and if you think canada doesnt have its hands in other places it shouldnt be, you might be right you might be wrong. i wouldnt know. however, i do know that everyone thinks of canada as being the little schoolboy who sucks up to its bigger brother, the us of a. perhaps that alone would trigger an attack on us, i wouldnt know. terrorists do not think rationally, obviously.

and radiodivision it is more than just underground propaganda what you heard about kuwait making that shit up to get american support. not that what we all learn in grade school is always accurate, but we DID learn that those stories were made up to get the americans on their side. it is common knowledge where i come from. whether or not were always fed the truth isnt the case really, but this is what ive been taught, and this makes sense to me. my eyes are open to see if something that condradicts this is more accurate than what ive learnt, i beleive i am open.

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Old 09-14-2001, 10:29 PM   #26
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most people I've been talking to at my job think the same as deathbear... and I do stand by him...

the "US got too far" feeling is present world-wide and sept. II is the extreme of extreme demonstration.

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Old 09-15-2001, 12:02 AM   #27
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Anthony, if you believe the U.S. is going to protect the world from lunatics you've overlooked the obvious. Thank you for making the U.S. the target for hatred and everything that goes wrong in the world because your country won't take on leadership by NOT taking over other countries like Ireland and India and all the others that offer monetary gain.

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Old 09-15-2001, 12:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
Thank you for making the U.S. the target for hatred and everything that goes wrong in the world because your country won't take on leadership by NOT taking over other countries like Ireland and India and all the others that offer monetary gain.

Are you saying the US should have taken over these Countries or am i mistaken?


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Old 09-15-2001, 07:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by ]{arao]{e:
Anthony, if you believe the U.S. is going to protect the world from lunatics you've overlooked the obvious. Thank you for making the U.S. the target for hatred and everything that goes wrong in the world because your country won't take on leadership by NOT taking over other countries like Ireland and India and all the others that offer monetary gain.
Primarily, I'm sorry if I came across as simply saying that. I didnt mean to. All I meant was that if America retaliates, it will be doing the world a favour. And what did you mean by that final comment? I'm sorry, but your irony is lost on me. What point are you trying to make exactly? How did I make your country the target? Forgive me, but doesn't that attack demonstrate that it already IS the target? And what do you mean by MY country? Do me a favour, and leave my country out of it. Mainly because I don't have a country. I have a British passport but my father was Spanish, my mother Mexican and I was raised in the Middle EAst; I repeat, WHAT country? Was your comment a criticism on the formal British empire? Was it supposed to be funny? Well, it clearly wasn't because I'm not a British patriot, but what the current terrorism has anything to do with British colonies in India (not to mention Ireland... you just had to drag Ireland into it, didnt you? ) I don't know.

Please explain. I know your comment was an attack on something about me, but I'm not sure what....

Ant.
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Old 09-15-2001, 10:29 PM   #30
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I was wrong.

My apoligies to "deathbear" for my angry reply. I still believe your comments were a bit unsensitive and can bring further pain to people, like myself, that are already reeling from this horror. I stated my view in a very prideful, angry and Unchristian way. I am sorry.

I was also wrong about my view about going after Bin Laden.
That feeling comes from fear, frustration, and anger. I want, or should I say, "I wanted" blood.

Truth is, I have NO idea WHAT to think anymore. There just is NO easy and clear answer... All options seem to end up in "war, massive deaths, and the end of this world as we know it".

IF I am to live a life of Christianity. If I am to follow Jesus and what He taught us, then I am to love my enemy, and turn the other cheek. I am to follow His example, and the examples of Ghandi and MLK.

I don't want to do that, because then that means I am choosing humiliation and pain for my country; because then I am choosing that others have "control" over what my country goes through because then I am choosing to have faith that the Enemy IS in fact human, and does have a conscience, and is capable of kindness, mercy and love; because then I am choosing to trust God - Be it that everything comes out okay, or that this means the destruction of this country or the world.

It seems I am falling short on trusting God. It seems I am failing at being a Christian.

It sure doesn't feel good.
It sure brings me confusion and unrest.

I realize that I am just one, insignificant man when it comes to deciding what George W. Bush will do - do for us and do TO us - But, I'm the one that has to live with myself and my heart.

I'm NOT supposed to want action taken against Ben Ladin and Afganistan.

What I "want" is not matching what I "should want".

I dont know what to think anymore.
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Old 09-16-2001, 03:49 AM   #31
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trashcan, i totally sympathize with what your saying. i never took offence to it anyway, cause i made sure that i was prepared for backlash.

and to be honest, their is a side of me that wants to bomb the living shit out of anything in the middleeast for this, but i do know its wrong, and i can realize that my anger is only going after revenge not justice.

i also feel lost. but then i read revelations, and i think well...maybe were getting closer to the end of the book...

anyway, everything was totally cool, and im sorry if i came off to strong, i really didnt want to come across as being insensitive.

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Old 09-16-2001, 04:55 PM   #32
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"Revelation".

Oh boy. Funny how people have a hard time believing in God; believing in the unconditional forgiveness and love of God, yet jump on the Book of Revelation bandwagon with ease. We do like the scarey and self-punishing aspects of our life now don't we??

I'm not putting you down, deathbear. If your faith or Christian denomination asks you to believe that the Book of Revelation is prophecy and a look into our future, or better yet into our demise, then I must respect that.

I, as a Roman Catholic (American Roman Catholic, because the Vatican may not hold this view!)choose to follow my faith's belief that the Book of Revelation was a letter written by "John" in "code". It is our belief that John wanted to give his fellow Christians hope and strengthen this faith by sending out this letter while he was under arrest. In order for the Romans not to destroy this letter of "hope", he wrote it in such a way that the Romans would think of it as insane nonsense and leave it alone, yet the early Christians would recognize it as very symbolic and would "read between the lines".
That is what some scholars have professed, and that is what my church ( I mean the parish I attend) has taught me.

I ALWAYS look to the Gospels for re-assurance. I forget which Gospel it is, but Jesus assures us that we will NOT know when the time for His second coming will be. Only The Father knows it. Hmmmm... He may have said something about turmoil though.
I'd have to look it up...( How embarrassing :rolleyes
My point is, I try...TRY to have hope, and look to today and now, and not try to decifer a letter and guess when the end of times will be.

Peace.

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Old 09-16-2001, 09:13 PM   #33
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well, i do not believe that the end times are all about guesses. beleive what you want to. but killing innocent lives, is something so uncool, and that is the main point. i was using revelations as an example to this thread, though i believe it.

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Old 09-16-2001, 10:40 PM   #34
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The Biblical book of Revelation is a book in code, as all Christian texts would have been seized during the Roman Empire at the time. Much of the apocalyptic symbolism is about their anger toward the Roman emperors and their own oppression at the hands of them.

However, such things are universal and have repeated themselves time and time again. Even historians at the time understood this. Charlemagne's empire was seen as the second Roman Empire, and Russians saw themselves as the third Roman Empire in the 1500s. Destruction of these "empires" is also universal. The Roman Empire fell to Germanic tribes, the Byzantine Empire fell to Turks, Charlemagne's empire fell to Vikings, Imperial Russia fell to Communists, and it will go on forever. Even the United States, arguably the latest in lines of successive "Roman Empires," will fall someday, hopefully later rather than sooner. Likewise, while the book of Revelation was written to reflect the Roman Empire in code, it still has meaning today, perhaps best expressing the universality of "the end."

Just a random interpretation...

Melon

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Old 09-17-2001, 10:01 AM   #35
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Melon, waht you wrote is entirely correct. There are many methods of interpreting the Book of Revelation, besides the "future" outlook.

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