The US SUCKS because...

[JessicaAnn]

Originally posted by Lemonite

Anyways, The point remains.. morally wrong or right.. what ethnicity or nationality were these terrorists?.. It's just common sense to pay a bit more attention.. Call it what you want, Just be sure to call it smart in the same breath.

I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.

[Elvis]

Originally posted by JessicaAnn


I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.

BOOM!

Great points!


Of course.. this leads me back to the fact that we, the US, needs to WAKE UP, and start acting as if we are in the real world, not Disneyland....

We need to accept the fact that the enemy(s) is invisible for the most part, and can be from within or outside, one of our own or someone foreign.

It's sad to think, but I think some companies understand security (technological or physical) better than our gov't....
Although, I have a friend which does consulting for the gov't. He told me that most of the REALLLLY important labs/computers in this country use 'physical' security... meaning, your access/password into even touch specific room/computer is actually getting by armed military personnel. Yet... coyotes run people accross our borders via land, air, and sea... ALL the time.

In case you hadn't ever noticed, been on the coasts, or been boating in the pacific or atlantic... pretty much anyone on a boat can motor on into our harbours and onto our shores.

Containers on ships at the ports, ie. Los Angeles, aren't checked or 'sniffed' thoroughly... and it wouldn't matter. By the time they are already in port, docked, it could be to late. In reality, they, need to be checked out at sea, and then escorted in. No easy task... as far as resources, money, or technology.

[JessicaAnn]

Well then by that logic, I should be afraid of everyone no matter what their race, age, religion or national origin ... cause anyone and everyone can commit a crime/act of terrorism.

That's it ... I am going into hiding. (just kidding )

[Elvis]

Originally posted by JessicaAnn
Well then by that logic, I should be afraid of everyone no matter what their race, age, religion or national origin ... cause anyone and everyone can commit a crime/act of terrorism.

That's it ... I am going into hiding. (just kidding )

Unfortunately, call me a pessimist, I think it's going to have to come to that.

Everything we know... IS wrong. Things that we take for granted such as our water and electicity, can for the most part, be disrupted or contaminated. With the way terrorists seem to think, exploiting the common things, our entire way of life is at risk. We can argue about worrying or not worrying about these things, giving into their methods of terror, or being strong and living life.... but the truth is, they feel they have the 'RIGHT' to kill Americans, and no matter what we fear or don't fear, they will continue on with their agenda, unless they are destroyed - totally. Yet... there always seems to be sympathizers of 'evil'... Hitler and the Nazi regime may have been destroyed, but you still see plenty of neo-nazi and related organizations around.

How do you deal with those not willing to play by the 'rules'?

[z edge]

Originally posted by Elvis
... well it really doesn't SUCK.

But as a proud citizen of the US, I DO question why our country's intelligence community seems to be in the Ice Age,

Our intelligence community suffered from lack of guidance, from the top down creating general neglect and complacency.

My theory is as closely related to the military. In early 1992, then- president Bush implemented what we referred to as a "drawdown" (not to be confused with an involuntary reduction in force 'RIF'), a voluntary separation for those members to slim the military down a bit. This came with a bonus package and included early retirements. I cannot remember the numbers proposed, but the drawdown was only supposed to last for a few months and had a defined target not to exceed.

Then came the Clinton administration, who for whatever reason extended the program passed the target and beyond, and I mean beyond as it was still going on after I left in 1996! By the time I did leave the army, we were so depleted that our particular unit went on deployments that overlapped each other. Like we might go from Somalia to Haiti to Saudi and never even get back to base. (example)

Therefore, I rightfully assume that some negligance of such proportions took place in the intelligence community. In fact I am certain of it.

and why our major cities have not been, and most still arent, protected with military/air force support? Israel, a country the size of California, does have its major cities protected 24/7 with fighters... even during peace times.

We do, now anyways. We have fighters and surveliance aircraft in the air 24/7 now. And I should add that we had European support as we had NATO assisting us here in our skies up until very recently.

Are we (the US) so in a little fairytale world that we feel we are safe from the harsh realities of the world? Personally, I think our own lack of paranoia and security will be our greatest enemy. Do we even have surface to air defenses in our major cities? in our CAPITOL? It appears not.

I cannot answer this one. We should be more aware of each other and our surroundings.

Yes we do have surface to air defenses in every major city.

The fact is we have the hardware necessary to stave off any attack. However, the back door was open. And it has been open for a long time.

I wish to point out in support of my theory above that 911 has been planned for years. And there were trial runs for years:

*The first attack in 1993 (wtc),
* assasination attempt Bush #41, 1993
*The barracks in Khobar Towers in 1996
* the US Embassies in 1998
* USS Cole in 2000.

Let's not forget we had knowledge of Bin Laden (FBI Most Wanted List in 1998) and his activities well before 911. We could have had him in Sudan, didn't want him.

Oddly enough, the plan was carried out by Al-Queda before George W. Bush had enough time to undo the damage done to our intelligence community and military. How else could we explain all of this knowledge we had and the events that were carried out without any suitable recourse.

They never tried this during the Reagan-Bush eras. And though they are so brave and not afraid to die, why are the leaders in hiding? Hiding from our technology that is 20 years old but still new to us. Technology that we rely on to save many of the lives of our foot soldiers, ground troops.

And what is the appropriate response to those not willing to play by the rules? Simple, once our intelligence has regained the prowess of the glory days (over 9 years ago), we target them for elimination.

Eliminate them, and those that support them.

Then we can reclaim our own castle.

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by JessicaAnn


I didn't start "paying more attention" to white males of terrorism after the Oklahoma City bombing or all Harvard grads after Ted Kaczynski started sending mail bombs. I am certainly not going to characterize all Muslims or people of Middle Eastern decent terrorists.

Hahah.. I should have expounded more for those who do not want to follow what common sense does tell.. My basis for my statement comes to the forefront when I see a Norwegian Grandmother being frisked, or an 11 year old black girl being escorted off and on .. and off again an airplane..

It is ridiculous to not profile.. I'm also assuming that the usual security checks and that in selecting a specific group of people to pay a bit more attention to that we do not forget about everyone else.. But to think that it's not just Arab Muslims who commit terrorism.. That is a point conceded by everyone.. but it sure as hell is a lot more possible that a 28 year old Arab Muslim that walked right down the jetway is going to try and hijack the airplane, than this 88 year old Norwegian Grandmother.. No one is asking you to 'Characterize' anyone.. please step off your horse.. and wake up to the facts.

Pidalla and Lindh do make for challenges, as they do not fit the profile.. but no one seems to be answering the Fact staring them in the face.. Who Hijacked those Airplanes?.. Arab Muslims.. Saudis.. But wait.. I'll let Atta walk down that jetway so I can stop this 11 year old black girl so I don't hurt anyone's feelings..

I'm waiting for someone to make fun of the completely .. well.. 1980'sish 'BooM' that a poster put in there.. It's just too easy.. Hahaha.. It's like someone taunting someone else by going 'ooohh. dag..' Hahaha.. All while teaching them a bit of common sense.

How about 'Krack'.. 'Whap'.. Hahaha..

L.Unplugged

[Elvis]

Originally posted by z edge


Our intelligence community suffered from lack of guidance, from the top down creating general neglect and complacency.

My theory is as closely related to the military. In early 1992, then- president Bush implemented what we referred to as a "drawdown" (not to be confused with an involuntary reduction in force 'RIF'), a voluntary separation for those members to slim the military down a bit. This came with a bonus package and included early retirements. I cannot remember the numbers proposed, but the drawdown was only supposed to last for a few months and had a defined target not to exceed.

Then came the Clinton administration, who for whatever reason extended the program passed the target and beyond, and I mean beyond as it was still going on after I left in 1996! By the time I did leave the army, we were so depleted that our particular unit went on deployments that overlapped each other. Like we might go from Somalia to Haiti to Saudi and never even get back to base. (example)

Therefore, I rightfully assume that some negligance of such proportions took place in the intelligence community. In fact I am certain of it.

To assume is ignorant. Please withdraw the republican bias... this isnt a thread for political diabtribe. As a result, I will not respond to most of your biased commentary.

These problems have been longterm and are NOT attributed to any one political party or administration. Infact, if attributed to any political party, it would be attributed to the childish squabling between the two, and not focusing on the REAL issues of national security, but instead focusing on what politician screwed who, who ripped off who, etc etc.

I'm not in the mood to waste time... like most politicians do.

Originally posted by z edge



We do, now anyways. We have fighters and surveliance aircraft in the air 24/7 now. And I should add that we had European support as we had NATO assisting us here in our skies up until very recently.

This is NOT true.
We do however apparently have planes over DC and NY, but that's it.

[anitram]

I don't know.....

I've spent time in countries where the military presence has almost become part of the culture. You have soldiers everywhere - patrolling streets, sitting in cafes, posted outside of major buildings or schools.

We unfortunately seem to live in a world where this type of thing may be necessary. But believe me when I tell you that it takes away something from your humanity. You'll find yourself walking through a city one day, no longer surprised by the sight of people walking around with guns, or airplanes flying overhead. And on that day, you lose something of yourself that you might never get back.

Maybe it's naive, but I don't see this as a black or white question.

[JessicaAnn]

Originally posted by Lemonite


Hahah.. I should have expounded more for those who do not want to follow what common sense does tell.. My basis for my statement comes to the forefront when I see a Norwegian Grandmother being frisked, or an 11 year old black girl being escorted off and on .. and off again an airplane..

It is ridiculous to not profile.. I'm also assuming that the usual security checks and that in selecting a specific group of people to pay a bit more attention to that we do not forget about everyone else.. But to think that it's not just Arab Muslims who commit terrorism.. That is a point conceded by everyone.. but it sure as hell is a lot more possible that a 28 year old Arab Muslim that walked right down the jetway is going to try and hijack the airplane, than this 88 year old Norwegian Grandmother.. No one is asking you to 'Characterize' anyone.. please step off your horse.. and wake up to the facts.

Pidalla and Lindh do make for challenges, as they do not fit the profile.. but no one seems to be answering the Fact staring them in the face.. Who Hijacked those Airplanes?.. Arab Muslims.. Saudis.. But wait.. I'll let Atta walk down that jetway so I can stop this 11 year old black girl so I don't hurt anyone's feelings..

No matter what race or national origin, anyone walking on the jetway that shouldn’t be there should he hauled off … I don’t disagree with that.

However, the hijackers didn’t walk on the jetway … they walked on board like any other individual would.

That doesn’t change the fact that racial profiling is illegal.

How do you know hijackers won’t start corrupting 83 year old Norwegian grandmothers … it would be the perfect cover? (That was partially sarcastic). But now that we know non-Arabs are being recruited into terrorist organizations, who is to say that in time, they will be the ones hijacking planes (who would suspect a nice 28 year old white man from the Midwest would hijack a plane)?

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by JessicaAnn




How do you know hijackers won’t start corrupting 83 year old Norwegian grandmothers … it would be the perfect cover? (That was partially sarcastic). But now that we know non-Arabs are being recruited into terrorist organizations, who is to say that in time, they will be the ones hijacking planes (who would suspect a nice 28 year old white man from the Midwest would hijack a plane)?

Did you read my post?.. I, as well as many other supporters of profiling, never say to stop all other security checks and just Check Arabs.. That is a ridiculous assumption or conclusion to draw.. I haven't the time to continue..

But.. I just also stated above that Pidalla and Lindh do provide challenges, but the fact still remains the same that the large large majority of Al Queda members are Arabs.. ALL the Hijackers were Arabs, Do with that what you will.. I just hope you're not working the check in counter at my next flight.

L.Unplugged

[MissZooropa]

Originally posted by Elvis

We have many more enemies than we think, waiting to storm the castle(s).

Why?

Isn't that question more important to put some energy in to find and answer to and from there work on preventing you from being attacked or threatened. I feel like you are starting in the wrong end of the line by increasing the military protection. It's like giving cure for the symptoms and not the disease, sooner or later the disease will kill you anyway.....

As someone else said, when the military is out patroling on the streets, something else is taken away from you.

And for you who think nothing has been done when it comes to security at the borders, let me tell you it has!! I felt like a terrorist when I crossed the US border a couple of weeks ago, I almost felt humiliated! After almost a cross examination (word?) I didn't felt any excitment at all entering the country any longer.

Just my 2 cents.....

*waiting to get flamed*

[z edge]

Originally posted by Elvis


To assume is ignorant. Please withdraw the republican bias... this isnt a thread for political diabtribe. As a result, I will not respond to most of your biased commentary.

Not a bias there boss
I have knowledge I cannot or would not post in/on forum(s), email, internet, etc.

When I say assume, then state that in fact i am certain, give me some credit. (And forget the fact i ever said i was a dog in this instance)

This is NOT true.
We do however apparently have planes over DC and NY, but that's it.

Ummm, so I am imagining things every day, when I see these things take off all day long. I know what they are, they come and go, I see them. Constantly.

[U2Bama]

Elvis:

I am in no way affiliated with the military, but I can assure you that the 117th Refueling Wing in Birmingham, Alabama is involved in daily refueling operations of AWACS and other defense aircraft flying over the U.S.

Are you proposing we convert to some sort of military state where we have tanks and other armaments rolling down the streets at lunch hour? The only time I see anything like that here is when we have a rare Southern snowstorm and the National Guard drives through the neighborhood in HumVs assisting the elderly. I do not want something like mid-1980s Eastern Europe, nor do I think we need it. Just my ignorant opinion though.

~U2Alabama

[Elvis]

Bama:

The last I heard, was that the only 24/7 air coverage (w/fighters) was over NYC and DC. If you have other factual information which supports otherwise, I'd love to see/hear/read it....


As stated before.. I think it's pathetic that airport security is pretty much back to the same old thing...

example: less than 2 months ago, I walked through the xray, put my cell phone and palm pilot in the tray. The tray was NOT scanned... and they did NOT make me show them that it worked properly (as intended). And yes, I did this intentionally. They airport screeners were SO concerned with xraying the carry-on bags that they TOTALLY neglected to do more specific searches on the persons. Now if you are unaware, a cell phone or palm pilot or both capable (in size) of being either explosives or detonation devices. As someone else stated... the bags that are going into the luggage compartments of the planes are either not being xrayed/searched at all, or only very few are checked randomly.

[U2Bama]

Honestly, Elvis, I do not know of any domestic regions where they currently have fighter jets randomly flying around, but most regions are within a few short minutes of a fighter jet deployment if needed. The planes flying all over the mainland and offshore are AWACS and other radar/recon equipped aircraft, which would ALERT the nearest fighter squadron (in my case, Montgomery, Alabama) of any problems.

As far as airport security, I fly frequently, and I am personally scanned everytime I go through the terminal gate, and sometimes at my departing gate as well. Perhaps it is my dark complexion (am I being profiled?) but I do feel that they have tightened security. Also, I have seen uniformed military personnel at every airport I have flown through recently.

~U2Alabama

[Angela Harlem]

Elvis the fact that they didnt check your palm pilot etc may have been specific to that airport or the fact it was a domestic flight (assuming it was). Or yeah it could have been lax security. When my other half went overseas at the start of the year he had his laptop literally pulled apart. They scanned the battery, switched it on (why I have no idea, I guess to make sure it was a real laptop - I dont know) they opened his bags there and then and sifted through everything thoroughly. They even opened up an unopened bag of fun sized chocolate bars I had put in there for his flight. He says the security was something to behold.
But yes, the only way to make sure is to put in place the most stringent of security measures. Unfortunately, I agree it isn't likely to happen in a way that can not guarantee as such, but allow us to say "we did everything we could".

[diamond]

Originally posted by Elvis
Bama:

The last I heard, was that the only 24/7 air coverage (w/fighters) was over NYC and DC. If you have other factual information which supports otherwise, I'd love to see/hear/read it....


As stated before.. I think it's pathetic that airport security is pretty much back to the same old thing...

example: less than 2 months ago, I walked through the xray, put my cell phone and palm pilot in the tray. The tray was NOT scanned... and they did NOT make me show them that it worked properly (as intended). And yes, I did this intentionally. They airport screeners were SO concerned with xraying the carry-on bags that they TOTALLY neglected to do more specific searches on the persons. Now if you are unaware, a cell phone or palm pilot or both capable (in size) of being either explosives or detonation devices. As someone else stated... the bags that are going into the luggage compartments of the planes are either not being xrayed/searched at all, or only very few are checked randomly.

Man.
Sheesh.
EVERYTIME I go thru they make me show them my cell ph works, my pager works ect..then I tell em- "Look Im a Republican PLUS Iam also a friend Of Bono's".
After that- its usually smooth sailing..
Late
Peace
Out
DB9

a small price to pay for living in a such a great country.

[Zooropa]

OK, a few points...

1. Elvis, you are calling for a "fortified castle" type approach to protect the US, which is physically imposiible. Do you have any idea what that would cost?? during the 90's, the US was shutting down military bases left and right to cut defense spending to use that money for healthcare, education, etc.... Even if we had not cut military spending, it would devistate the american economy to spend billions of dollars to defend in that way.

2. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Many people (myself included) often assume that we are all observing and all knowing when it comes to political, national, international and national security matters. We are not. I trust that our government is doing all that it can to defend us but it is impossible to defend against every possible attack.

3. Realistically speaking, the threat against us is pretty insignificant to the existence of our country. We are not fighting a war in which we are worried about being invaded and conquered by our enemy. We are fighting terrorists, whose main objecttion to us, is a result of what they perscieve to be a bias toward Israel. We are not in danger as a nation of being destroyed. It may seem harsh, but it is the reality.

4. Elvis, our military and it's technology is most certainly not outdated. Where on earth do you get this impression from??? I may get in trouble for saying this, but wasn't it you who was asking people to read non-fiction, to get a better understanding of the topic and the world around them in general when posting in these forums??? Our military is by far technologically superior to any other in the world. This is not even a debatable fact.

5. Finally!!! Elvis, it most certainly is not unamerican to question our leaders and their judgement. It is a right in this country to do so, and that is what thousands of men have died to protect. Our freedom, freedom of all things. I may not agree with what you think, but I would gladly die to protect your right to say it.

Just my 2 cents...

[Elvis]

Originally posted by diamond

a small price to pay for living in a such a great country.

That is the most intelligent thing I've seen you say here in the last 24 hrs!

I am willing to endure whatever security is needed to preserve our way of life.... EVEN if that security imposes on our 'way of life'... it's better than the alternative.


Back to the cell and palm: When I was exployed as a dotcommer I often flew every 2-3 weeks for business.. (and this was WAY b4 9/11) as a result I would always expect to have my electronic carry-on items checked.. and would basically have them open and ready for inspection, and even press the buttons to show them things worked.. as I walked through... but the last time I flew, which was from SNA (orange county, ca) to SJC (San Jose, CA) and back... I didn't have either checked. I did notice a few people offered to have them checked, much like I used to, but I decided to see what would happen at both airports if I neglected to volunteer. I was allowed to just pass through both times easily. Infact.. and this is the WORST... at one of the checks I had my cell in my jacket pocket... it made the scanner beep... I took it out, briefly showed the security guy that that's what made it scan, did NOT pass through the gate again, and went on my way.

And I saw NO armed personnel at either airport... although I did in October.

Personally, I think it is foolish for us (americans) to think we're "going to be okay" and sit back and do little to nothing about it.

I've always been one to pay attention to what's around me, and see the 'holes', just out of interest, although I would never exploit anything like that. Go to a public place... a sporting event, a harbor, a movie theater, a downtown area, a large mall, etc.... LOOK around... look at how many exits there are, look at the structue, look at how many people are in a relatively small space... and then realize that in places like Israel, you don't need to even be in a large place like that to be at risk... just you're run of the mill coffee shop, grocery store, or on the street driving.

If you think they (terrorists) won't eventually pull those same stunts here, in the US, you may think I'm paranoid, but I'd think you're very foolish.

Reports that Bin Laden was trying to obtain a small nuclear device... most likely true. Many missing nuclear devices from the old USSR... true. The world was MUCH more safe during the cold war.

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Elvis



That is the most intelligent thing I've seen you say here in the last 24 hrs!

anything from diamond without a blatant reference to his beverage choice would appear brilliant at this point