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Old 07-16-2002, 03:12 AM   #21
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i can't say it is very surprising. I sometimes wonder if people pay enought attention to these problems, but i guess this shows it.
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:21 AM   #22
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The source: "Stupid White Men", by none other than Michael Moore. Chapter's Two and Eight will supply more information on this topic.

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Old 07-16-2002, 11:48 PM   #23
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Here are more specific sources for the information listed above:

1)www.worldgame.org
2)Center for Defense Information: "The Costs of Ballistic Missile Defense," By Christopher Hellman,
3)The World Bank's report, "Meeting the Challenge: Mural Energy and Development for Two Billion People Report", 2000.
4)Council for a Livable World, "Fiscal Year 2001 Military Budget at a Glance," www.clw.org.
5)US Vital Statistics----US Census Bureau Population Report Table #247
6)US National Center for Education Statistics, Digest of Education Statistics #311.
7)Children Defense Fund, "The State of America's Children Yearbook 2000"
8) UN Human Development Report 2000
9) US Vital Statistics, Tables #1356, 1361, 1390, 1398
10)Energy Information Administration, "Official Energy Statistics from the US Government's"
11)Amnesty International Facts and Figures on the Death Penalty, 6/1/01
12)Patrick Moynihan, "Family and Nation". 1986, p. 96.
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Old 07-16-2002, 11:51 PM   #24
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You could also list an Olympics site, since it would list the different sports in which U.S. athletes won the Gold (#1). I think it might be good since you want a composite listing of things in which the U.S. is #1!

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Old 07-17-2002, 12:25 AM   #25
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I'm not interested in sports statistics, (well actually, they're not that bad), but thanks for the pointer.
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Old 07-17-2002, 12:27 AM   #26
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I really don't understand why people are shocked and angered by these statistics. Any entry-level class in World Politics, Sociology, or Economics would tell you the same exact thing...Americans are the largest consumers of the world's resources. There's no getting around it. You can use the population argument to justify the statistics if you want, but that won't hold up because countries like India and China have populations of 1 billion+.

And America might have (some of) the finest universities in the world, but I would say that the US K-12 educational system (which is where 8th grade scores factor in) is one of the easiest in the world.
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Old 07-17-2002, 12:33 AM   #27
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Re: The United States in #1....(just check out all of these facts!!!)

Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
o Becoming the first society in history in which the poorest group in the population are children
He might mean that we'll be the first generation in a while whose children will be less wealthy than us (or something along those lines).
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Old 07-17-2002, 02:08 AM   #28
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I really don't understand why people are shocked and angered by these statistics. Any entry-level class in World Politics, Sociology, or Economics would tell you the same exact thing...Americans are the largest consumers of the world's resources. There's no getting around it. You can use the population argument to justify the statistics if you want, but that won't hold up because countries like India and China have populations of 1 billion+.
But what about PRODUCTION? If we're also the largest producers in the world, doesn't that offset our consumption just a wee bit?

It certainly seems that we lead the world in production. From the CIA's "World Factbook 2001":

The Gross World Product in 2000 was an estimated $43.6 trillion. The United States was responsible for $10.0 trillion, or 23%. The world's population (July 2001 estimate) is about 6,157 million people - a little over 6 billion. The population of the United States is 278 million, or 4.5%.

Therefore, 4.5% of the world's humans (those in the greedy United States) is responsible for the production of 23% of the world's wealth.

Let us look at these stats in a country-by-country comparison. For brevity, let's compare the United States to the other G8 countries, China, India, and Brazil. (As a reminder, the G8 includes the following countries: the U.S., the U.K., France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada, and Russia.)


From the same source, a comparison of Gross Domestic Products (2000 estimate, in billions of U.S. dollars):

$9,963 - United States
$4,500 - China
$3,150 - Japan
$2,200 - India
$1,936 - Germany
$1,448 - France
$1,360 - United Kingdom
$1,273 - Italy
$1,130 - Brazil
$1,120 - Russia
$ 775 - Canada


Now, let's normalize for population, and consider per capita GDP:

$36,200 - United States
$24,900 - Japan
$24,800 - Canada
$24,400 - France
$23,400 - Germany
$22,800 - United Kingdom
$22,100 - Italy
$ 7,700 - Russia
$ 6,500 - Brazil
$ 3,600 - China
$ 2,200 - India


We purchase more certainly, but we also PRODUCE MORE. Such a correlation between consumption and production should make a lot of sense to any student of economics:

- We consume more because we have more money.
- We have more money because we produce more wealth.

The ONLY way that one will not come to that conclusion is if you assume that we greedy Americans STEAL from other countries. That notion is, by and large, CRAP.


...all of this leads to another unspoken question: why us?

More specifically, why does the United States and Japan have such productive economies (particularly when you normalize for population? Why doesn't Europe or China?

Is it the abundance of natural resources? Well, no: Japan is a small, rocky archipelago and it's doing far better (per capita) than its large neighbor to the west and is able to just outpace all of Europe. Is it the long-established government? Again, no: the U.K.'s government has been around far longer than the American and Japanese governments.

Could it be... economic freedom?

I think so: I think economic freedom (capitalism, the only "-ism" that occurs on its own) is why we're doing so well: competition, economic rewards for offering the best product at the lowest price. The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law).


At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.

Isn't it telling that Michael Moore's uncredited list fails to mention this?

Isn't it also telling what stats DANOSPANO seems focused on?
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Old 07-17-2002, 04:16 AM   #29
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Originally posted by z edge


Yes you are right. I am the epitome of american ignorrance/arrogance. If you want to know everything about me then just watch the movie American Pie I or II. Thats all there is, just that loud, arrogant, self-absorbed american or "ugly american" thats me and my culture. Ahh yes, thank you for noticing, as I tried soooo hard to get your attention and it has finally worked.



ah yes cool, I do try desperately to attain this measure of ones worth. I mean if you are not cool, then what else is there?



Oh gosh, you've got me again *claps hands for you* "!YaY!"

But you see hippoh, I just can't win can I? Out of respect for Dannospano's feelings, I did not question any of the validity of the facts he stated (he stated "check out the facts" in the title) even though he did not even state where he got this information. While I may not agree with it, it is hard to even accept it without the source, but since there has been controversey form some of his posts regarding the source(s) I assume that is the reason he did not say where this came from.

SO I try to be nice and I'm not being arguementative and I am attacked for not arguing? Sweetheart, do I need your permission to post from now on?

And as far as educating myself, you see I am such a busy little boy! While I am busy 6 days a week making bombs for Uncle Sam, my evenings are filled with getting my lavish home ready for my new swimming pool, so I can only post occasionly when I check in.

And really, we all know I don't care about what goes on outside my country except for my bombs



But I still love you very much
with all of my

Z-

LMAO!!! I love you too, honey.
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
More specifically, why does the United States and Japan have such productive economies (particularly when you normalize for population? Why doesn't Europe or China?


China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.

Quote:
At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.
For the US to serve as "one of this planet's great breadbaskets" it would have to export a significant amount of what it produces, correct? And yet the United States imports far more than it exports, which is what the accumulated external debt of the US is $2.3 trillion [1] (compare that to the external debt of all developing countries added together - $2.5 trillion [2]. Also compare the $20 billion annually the US pays to service that debt to the $300 billion developing countries pay.)

If the US is the richest country in the world (and I don't dispute that it is) then why does it owe so much money?

Sources:
[1]IMF handbook of International Financial Statistics, November 2001
[2]The Economist, Febuary 2002
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:11 AM   #31
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Quoting Bubba:

I think so: I think economic freedom (capitalism, the only "-ism" that occurs on its own) is why we're doing so well: competition, economic rewards for offering the best product at the lowest price. The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law).


At any rate, I believe I've thoroughly discredited the notion - implied or outright stated - that the United States is nothing more than a giant, bloated consumer of goods. We are also a great producer of goods, feeding much of the rest of the world, serving as one of this planet's great breadbaskets.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I say so, Bubba; the States are great producers of goods - and great producers of lots of crap, too. I wouldnīt have thought of food in the first place, more of weaponry f.e., but fine, you got a point there (and remember that I dig REAL American cars).

Anyway, the gulf between the United States - OR Europe - and the Third World is an unequal "distribution" of wealth.

The difference between the U.S. and Europe may be one of economic freedom/ laws (the European Unionīs just trying to catch up), but the difference to Third World States - no way.

Are we stealing? Yes, constantly. In a kind of reversed Robin Hood manner: steal from the poor, give it to the rich ones.

Just admit it, it doesnīt make you or me a bad person, we donīt direct the price of the bananas or whatever. First of all, America was stolen (remember the Indians, who believed that land belongs to every being and is not buyable?), and Europe build up big part of its wealth with stolen wealth and resources from its colonies.
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Old 07-17-2002, 05:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


And really, we all know I don't care about what goes on outside my country except for my bombs

Z-
No, we only know that you think photos of babies with guns are wonderful.

Being one of the NICE guys, I may ask: Did I misinterprete your post (maybe you just thought that the baby and therefore the photo is wonderful and you just didnīt see the gun)?
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.

Well, China also has four times the population of the US.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:09 PM   #34
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I thought that Japan had the fastest growing economy...
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by kariatari
I thought that Japan had the fastest growing economy...
Err, not since the Asian financial crisis of the late 90s. The last I heard they were still in recession perhaps even economic depression.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:30 PM   #36
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
China has the fastest growing economy in the world, in fact it's expected to overtake the United States as the largest economy in the world within the next ten to twenty years.[/b]
From the CIA factbook:

"In late 1978 the Chinese leadership began moving the economy from a sluggish Soviet-style centrally planned economy to a more market-oriented system. Whereas the system operates within a political framework of strict Communist control, the economic influence of non-state managers and enterprises has been steadily increasing. The authorities have switched to a system of household responsibility in agriculture in place of the old collectivization, increased the authority of local officials and plant managers in industry, permitted a wide variety of small-scale enterprise in services and light manufacturing, and opened the economy to increased foreign trade and investment. The result has been a quadrupling of GDP since 1978. "

My hypothesis is that economic freedom is why the United States and Japan are so successful. As a counterargument, you present China, the "fastest growing economy in the world."

But the reason its economy is growing is economic reforms, reforms that increased economic freedom.

My point is still made.

Quote:
For the US to serve as "one of this planet's great breadbaskets" it would have to export a significant amount of what it produces, correct? And yet the United States imports far more than it exports, which is what the accumulated external debt of the US is $2.3 trillion [1] (compare that to the external debt of all developing countries added together - $2.5 trillion [2]. Also compare the $20 billion annually the US pays to service that debt to the $300 billion developing countries pay.)

If the US is the richest country in the world (and I don't dispute that it is) then why does it owe so much money?

Sources:
[1]IMF handbook of International Financial Statistics, November 2001
[2]The Economist, Febuary 2002
Your argument is fallacious: you're saying we have a large trade deficit (which I readily grant), therefore we don't feed the rest of the world.

It's very possible that we have a large trade deficit overall DESPITE the fact that we have a trade surplus in agricultural products. In fact, that appears to be the case.

From Oregon State University's [url=http://govinfo.kerr.orst.edu/impexp.html]Government Information Sharing Project[url], the amount of kilograms exported and imported in 1998:

The first quantity is exports; the second is imports (i.e., "foreign exports").


DURUM WHEAT SEED FOR SOWING
Exports: 1,354,856
Imports: 0

WHEAT AND MESLIN SEED FOR SOWING (EXCEPT DURUM)
95,233,255
0

OATS SEED FOR SOWING
1,678,254
22,059

CORN (MAIZE), OTHER THAN YELLOW CORN, SEED, NESOI
84,153,005
1,547,938

POPCORN, UNPOPPED, EXCEPT SEED
99,445,346
19,537

RICE IN THE HUSK (PADDY OR ROUGH)
1,744,390,589
239,263

RICE, BASMATI, HUSKED (BROWN)
3,243,012
0


I could, LITERALLY, go on and on.

Like I said, BREADBASKET OF THE WORLD.
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:51 PM   #37
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Yes, I say so, Bubba; the States are great producers of goods - and great producers of lots of crap, too. I wouldnīt have thought of food in the first place, more of weaponry f.e., but fine, you got a point there (and remember that I dig REAL American cars).
Whether you considered it or not, we do produce and export a HELL of a lot of food.

I will grant that we also spend a lot building up our military, but it would be foolish to decrease military spending in this very dangerous world, and the reality is, we are probably underfunding the military compared to its needs.

Either way, if the U.S. produces a lot of "crap," so what? Free market economies guide producers to create what consumers will buy. The only alternative is state control - which failed absolutely in the Soviet Union and is unsuccessful in China that they are moving toward free markets to keep up with us.

Quote:
Anyway, the gulf between the United States - OR Europe - and the Third World is an unequal "distribution" of wealth.

The difference between the U.S. and Europe may be one of economic freedom/ laws (the European Unionīs just trying to catch up), but the difference to Third World States - no way.

Are we stealing? Yes, constantly. In a kind of reversed Robin Hood manner: steal from the poor, give it to the rich ones.

Just admit it, it doesnīt make you or me a bad person, we donīt direct the price of the bananas or whatever. First of all, America was stolen (remember the Indians, who believed that land belongs to every being and is not buyable?), and Europe build up big part of its wealth with stolen wealth and resources from its colonies.
Every time I hear the "reverse Robin Hood" metaphor, I am forced to scratch my head and wonder: the poor don't have that much, so what is there to steal?

But I digress.

To say that we stole our land from the Indians - true as it may well be - is to evade the issue. You're saying that we are CURRENTLY, THIS VERY MOMENT, stealing from the Third World; the defrauding of native Americans 150 years ago is utterly irrelevant.

How are we "constantly" stealing from the Third World now?

We're certainly not sending our military, marauder-style, to steal food from Africa. In fact, last time our military was in Africa (Somalia), it was to protect food that the industrialized world was sending to it.

The only stealing I can think of is the following case: corporations lease land from the local government for next to nothing, clear-cut the land, and leave. But why does THAT happen?

Simple: those countries have very little private property - note how the company leases the land from the government. If the bulk of the land was owned privately by native-born people, and if those private property rights were respected by the rule of law, then MOST of the problem would be solved. Third World logging would be comparable to American logging, which is MUCH better for the locals (not to mention the environment).


I reiterate: "The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law)."
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Old 07-17-2002, 01:57 PM   #38
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What do you mean, breadbasket? It doesnīt mean that U.S. gives all this away for free, does it? Ok, great that you are a producer of so much food, but how much over-production is thrown into U.S. dustbins while others die of hunger?

Then, an interseting point that you didnīt touch, is the 20 bil/ 300 bil difference. Even if I am not sure that this number is exact (but I can research a little if you are interested), points like this make clear that our nice rich nations are thieves. Oh, not in the sense that they are haunted by police, or the responsible persons go to prison, but in the sense that interest rates are directed to let our wealth prosper, while it makes poor countries even poorer.

Last but not least: Those statistics are interesting, the ones about how much export volume (in dollars) the U.S. makes with arms exports, is even more interesting. You know, the fun thing about it is: who makes the money? The 30,000 people that were laid off at Boeing? The average American person? No. But who pays for supporting those exports? The ones who make the big deal? No, the taxpayer (over the Pentagon).

Who pays for the military training the Pentagon finances in over 70 (yes that is SEVENTY! Expect a few Bin Ladens to creep out, brothers!) countries in all the world? And who pays that? YOU!!!

Now, I am really laughing my ass off, how supportive you are to the fake of democracy youīre living in. Just answer me: I really really think that more than 50 percent of Americans would be against this special waste program, if they were informed about it properly. Maybe the so-called civil society would be too lazy to get away from the T.V. hail star wars propaganda, but tell me:

Why does America never vote about those issues, military spending, f.e.? Why does the Pentagon, backed by Congress, poop out another billions to General Electric when their betrayals were proven? Whatīs up with your Enron et al. crisis? Lots of talking, but nothing happening, except of fishy announcements?

Oh, it must be because you live in a democracy.
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Old 07-17-2002, 02:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


Whether you considered it or not, we do produce and export a HELL of a lot of food.

I will grant that we also spend a lot building up our military, but it would be foolish to decrease military spending in this very dangerous world, and the reality is, we are probably underfunding the military compared to its needs.

Either way, if the U.S. produces a lot of "crap," so what? Free market economies guide producers to create what consumers will buy. The only alternative is state control - which failed absolutely in the Soviet Union and is unsuccessful in China that they are moving toward free markets to keep up with us.



Every time I hear the "reverse Robin Hood" metaphor, I am forced to scratch my head and wonder: the poor don't have that much, so what is there to steal?

But I digress.

To say that we stole our land from the Indians - true as it may well be - is to evade the issue. You're saying that we are CURRENTLY, THIS VERY MOMENT, stealing from the Third World; the defrauding of native Americans 150 years ago is utterly irrelevant.

How are we "constantly" stealing from the Third World now?

We're certainly not sending our military, marauder-style, to steal food from Africa. In fact, last time our military was in Africa (Somalia), it was to protect food that the industrialized world was sending to it.

The only stealing I can think of is the following case: corporations lease land from the local government for next to nothing, clear-cut the land, and leave. But why does THAT happen?

Simple: those countries have very little private property - note how the company leases the land from the government. If the bulk of the land was owned privately by native-born people, and if those private property rights were respected by the rule of law, then MOST of the problem would be solved. Third World logging would be comparable to American logging, which is MUCH better for the locals (not to mention the environment).


I reiterate: "The gulf between the United States and the Third World is NOT an unequal distribution of wealth or resources: it's an unequal distribution of economic freedom and the social structures necessary to maintain it (most notably, the rule of law)."

First, the only alternative is not state control, in the sense of communism. Another alternative would be to put restrictions on free worldwide production and selling. The U.S. had more regulations in the past, and Fordism functioned only for a certain period of time. My opinion is that economy has to be regulated.

You wonder: the poor donīt have that much so what could we steal? Turn on your head, big man. Their PRODUCTS!

Yes, these are amongst what we are constantly stealing from the third world. See the interests for debts above, just one example. Much bigger example: you can steal if you direct the price, nooooo? Never occured to you? The private wealth in third world countries also doesnīt rise because they are underpaid. Like the bananas mentioned above (or any other product they export): Apart from that WE should pay more, because then we would be more careful with food and throw less away, the main part of profits goes to the spans in between: transport, importers, and then supermarkets.

Fact is that first world has all the control. And with control, you have all the possibilities. Even to hide your stealing as normal economical procedures. But there is only one truth, and this stays the same: We are thieves, each and every day.

Oh, and the military spending is so high because we want this situation of control to STAY like it is. Iīm not saying that people from third world countries would be at the same level with us, but I am saying that the Pentagon and its beloved agancys do their very best to keep the situation like it is. Political instability is not a motor to development and independency and freedom. And I donīt think the main goal of the C.I.A. is to stabilise other countries, is it?

Interesting example: one time I was watching a documentary about ex agency workers. One of them was telling a story... donīt remember which country it was, latin america somewhere...
like he was having a job as a truckdriver, a meat transport truck, right. Then, they got the order to destabilize the country, maybe because some paranoid in Langley had the idea someone social could rise. Simple thing: the agent stopped his car, didnīt transport anymore, this makes tons of bad meat stinking in the sun, which makes people nervous - as they donīt have that much there, they donīt like wasting resources - take this little example, multiply it with 10,000 and the country is destabilized.

Cool how we keep our wealth and destoy development policies, hmmm?


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Old 07-17-2002, 02:42 PM   #40
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Last but not least: Those statistics are interesting, the ones about how much export volume (in dollars) the U.S. makes with arms exports, is even more interesting.
I think it's important to note that though the arms export numbers may be more interesting than the agricultural numbers, they are smaller. The United States' number one export is agricultural products, worth 50-60 billion dollars per year. According to the USDA, our trade surplus in agricultural goods is expected to top $18 billion in 2002.
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