DoctorGonzo
War Child
As if you needed more reasons not to trust the government
This is the kind of shit that just pisses me off to no end. Fucking madness.
This is the kind of shit that just pisses me off to no end. Fucking madness.
The U.S millitary planned to attack the United States to provoke a war with Cuba
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Not to downplay the fact that this information is some fucked up shit (pardon the language), but their plans obviously weren't put into action, and that did happen around 40 years ago, I don't think the military could get away with even scheming about that kind of stuff now, not with the type of media we have.
But yeah, that is some crazy shit!
[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 12-14-2001).]
But yeah, that is some crazy shit!
[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 12-14-2001).]
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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Yeep, if that happened (and that's a big IF), it happened 40 years ago - long before you were born, probably. So what is your point? You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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Accosted? How did I accost you? And if I did, why would I apologize for "accosting" you for your anti-American rhetoric because of something that may or may not have happened 40 years ago? Do not hold your breath on that one.
Because it proves that I'm not paranoid without reason. You and your amigos basically accused me and my fellows as being unpatriotic without basing it on fact. Well, there you go...this story is one example that supports my distrust in ANY of our governments actions. You can no longer deny that the US is full of secrets. Secrets, which if revealed, would hurt its reputation and protector of the free world.
Additionally, this story was reported on ABC News, which is the most mainstream media in the world. If they report something like this, the odds are small that it is false. I personally found it surprising that they would even mention this story...
Additionally, this story was reported on ABC News, which is the most mainstream media in the world. If they report something like this, the odds are small that it is false. I personally found it surprising that they would even mention this story...
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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I never accused you of being patriotic. I said you hate America. And I do have basis for that. Every post you make, you see as an opportunity to slam America. Same with Doctor Gonzo. Same with that Patti Jones person.
devalera1
The Fly
What Gonzon and Spano are missing in their broad painting of the government as untrustworthy is that the government actually choose not to implement those plans. If anything, this would seem like an example of our government working.
Lemonite
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Oh my dear Dr. Gonzo.. Bringing in such a hugely old .. over forty years .. topic, in order to make your point.. No one here is saying that they Blindly trust the government, but I don't think that we'er out of line by saying that the govt that is in the seat right now, is looking out for our best interest as a country.. If they have to withhold data, or even give a bit of a fib here or there.. It's ok, Like i've said in many of my posts.. Americans, should not be so needy for information.. the gov't should just handle teh war, and just let us know when its done, there is a responsibility of the gov't to not run amok or fall to enormous amounts of shady tactics, or behind the wire dealings, but let's face it, some bad shit is needed in order to accompolish things.. I wouldn't be thrilled if we blew upone of our marine squadrons.. but let's face it, that never happened, Did you live during that time... did you sit in your living room while Cuba had a nuclear missle pointing our way with russia.. No.. neither did I.. Anyways, it didn't happen... I assume you are the 'mysterious arab league' who is calling the tape a forged document.. Well, Let's start a petition here on Interference so Dr. Gonzo can buy an official interpreter.. Have you ever seen goonies with Mouth and teh Spanish Housekeeper.. May you be blessed with such a one when you travel to a foreign country...
Lemonite
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Well said, and guys.. keep the John Lennon out of Spano's ears
Lemonite
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
Let's all congratulate Gonzo on his six hours of internet search time for bringing such an issue to our eyes. Thank you Gonzo. This was something i didn't know, and an article i read with interest
your point is correct but an incredibly backwards way of looking at things. the leaders of the U.S. military at the time conceived of this plan. that should raise alarm bells and none of the responses provided by dano or gonzo have gone beyond reasonable shock. that fact, in and of itself, is scary. yes the civilian component of the government did stop it but that's not the point.
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against smileys
U2Bama
Rock n' Roll Doggie
It was a covert, intelligence-level military idea that should have never been devised. But I am glad that we do not have a "military government" here in the U.S., and not a whatever-the-military-says-goes system. The democratically-elected leaders rejected the plan, as they should have.
~U2Alabama
~U2Alabama
joyfulgirl
Blue Crack Addict
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I've no doubt this kind of thing goes on in our government (and others) all the time (even if this particular one didn't actually happen). I'm with Dr. Gonzo. I don't trust our government, but that doesn't mean I hate America.
Lilly
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
You mean we AREN'T supposed to realize that retrospect is 20/20? I think you might be asking too much...
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Taste is the enemy of art.
sulawesigirl4
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
That does it! I'm moving to a country where the government is completely open and honest and always does everything above-board all of the time, 100%.
Now.
Hmm....where to go. There are so many choices.
Now.
Hmm....where to go. There are so many choices.
Actually, the U.S. government does enough things to deserve distrust and dislike NOW.
One good example: the New York Times and other sources reported last week that the "high grade" anthrax floating around the United States and killing people is identical to that made by the U.S.'s biological weapons program. Not the Soviet's program (despite the thousand newspaper articles about how their weapons are escaping since the USSR breakdown) or Iraq's program (despite the million articles about how "dangerous" Saddam is to us now).
Some of you who believe so strongly in the morality/honesty of the U.S. government please answer me this simple 2-part question: A) Is there any use for weaponized anthrax other than to wipe out a civilian population?; and B) What business does the U.S. or anyone else have making it?
One good example: the New York Times and other sources reported last week that the "high grade" anthrax floating around the United States and killing people is identical to that made by the U.S.'s biological weapons program. Not the Soviet's program (despite the thousand newspaper articles about how their weapons are escaping since the USSR breakdown) or Iraq's program (despite the million articles about how "dangerous" Saddam is to us now).
Some of you who believe so strongly in the morality/honesty of the U.S. government please answer me this simple 2-part question: A) Is there any use for weaponized anthrax other than to wipe out a civilian population?; and B) What business does the U.S. or anyone else have making it?
i don't know about your other sources but the NY Times is tough to trust.
www.smartertimes.com
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against smileys
sulawesigirl4
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
How do you make an antidote to a disease? I'm not exactly sure, but I would guess that one way would be to have limited amounts of the virus/bacteria on hand. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. But it's a possibility, yes?
OzAurora
Refugee
"Dont believe the hype"
Matthew_Page2000
War Child
The "but it was 40 years ago!" argument doesn't hold water. Taken from the article:
"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff Documents. THE REASON THEY WERE HELD SECRET FOR SO LONG IS THE JOINT CHIEFS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THESE UP BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EMBARRASSING..."
In other words any equivalent treachery and evil planned or committed during the Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton or Dubya administrations probably won't be brought to light for years, if ever.
That the United States Military would plot to murder American citizens, John Glenn, American military personnel and Cuban refugees because they felt U.S. politicians such as Kennedy were "too Liberal" is stunning really. It certainly serves as a reminder of how badly the Joint Chiefs wanted Kennedy to start a nuclear war with the U.S.S.R. during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Sadly, President Kennedy was "too liberal" to precipitate the destruction of human civilization. It's something of a bummer isn't it?
Are any of the conservative Interferencers out there appalled by these revelations or does your moral outrage only extend to liberal indiscretions?
MAP
"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff Documents. THE REASON THEY WERE HELD SECRET FOR SO LONG IS THE JOINT CHIEFS NEVER WANTED TO GIVE THESE UP BECAUSE THEY WERE SO EMBARRASSING..."
In other words any equivalent treachery and evil planned or committed during the Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton or Dubya administrations probably won't be brought to light for years, if ever.
That the United States Military would plot to murder American citizens, John Glenn, American military personnel and Cuban refugees because they felt U.S. politicians such as Kennedy were "too Liberal" is stunning really. It certainly serves as a reminder of how badly the Joint Chiefs wanted Kennedy to start a nuclear war with the U.S.S.R. during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Sadly, President Kennedy was "too liberal" to precipitate the destruction of human civilization. It's something of a bummer isn't it?
Are any of the conservative Interferencers out there appalled by these revelations or does your moral outrage only extend to liberal indiscretions?
MAP
DoctorGonzo
War Child
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
Does it even begin to matter if it happened a year before I was born or 20? Our government planned to commit mass murder and terrorism on a scale that would make Al-Queda blush. Why shouldn't I care? What garuntee do I have that this shit is not going on now?
Maybe because in the U.S, the average person hears all day how superfantasticwonderful the U.S is, and how it is "defending freedom", the "leader of the free world", how we never would stoop so low as to become like Osama Bin Laden and how morally superior we are to terrorists, etc, etc, etc.
Pick up a copy of What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky. He simply takes offical U.S government documents and tells you what they say. You will be utterly amazed at all the things that are spelled out quite plainly in government papers, known throughout the rest of the world, but are utterly ignored in the U.S.
The fact our government conspired to kill us to launch a war says a lot about it, regardless of who said "no" to it.
What would be an acceptable time frame for you, anyway? I fear that you would simply dismiss anything that didn't happen yesterday. I believe the 1960s are sufficently recent to make this a very vaild example of how our government works.
Shredding the very values we base our nation on, and engaging in the kind of practices we mock other nations for is hardly "looking our for our best interest". If we undermine what the nation is based on, then we are fighting for a worthless, empty shell of a state that only exists for the sake of existing.
The nation was built on the distrust of government. Every branch was designed to overlap onto another, and public scruitny and criticism was encouraged as one of the founding principles of the United States. It prevents tyranny and the very kinds of things that are the subject of this thread.
Americans should be "needy for information". That is the very idea behind our system of government.
You want a Fast Food Government.
"Give me the results, don't bother me with the details, get it done fast and without it directly affecting me too much".
I'm sorry, apathy breeds tyranny. Constant vigilence is required to maintain a free and fair nation. And more importantly, one with some semblance of decency and basic morals.
That is a common rationale behind many atrocities througout history.
Well, by a stroke of luck, it didn't.
The leaders of our millitary tried to make it happen.
Somehow the concept that the ends do not always justify the means has escaped you.
Second time you've said this, but it doesn't change the fact that it was being planned and lobbied to the administration. The fact that the millitary would even attempt to do such a thing is an indictment of them.
When did I become a collection of Arabs?
Why are you bringing the Osama Bin Laden video into this discussion as if I had mentioned it? Sorry, try again.
Your juvinile attempt to mock me has humilated you in front of the rest of the forum.
[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-14-2001).]
Spiral_Staircase
War Child
Regarding the ABC story:
Un-be-freakin-leavable!
I have to say that I thought that all these conspiracy theories out there had absolutely no basis. Well, I now see I was wrong. This is insane.
But I should also say that this by no means leads me to distrust ALL of our government's actions. Because this idea was totally shot down, I have to believe that this type of plan is the exception rather than the rule.
Regarding the rest of the discussion in here:
Be nice.
Un-be-freakin-leavable!
I have to say that I thought that all these conspiracy theories out there had absolutely no basis. Well, I now see I was wrong. This is insane.
But I should also say that this by no means leads me to distrust ALL of our government's actions. Because this idea was totally shot down, I have to believe that this type of plan is the exception rather than the rule.
Regarding the rest of the discussion in here:
Be nice.
speedracer
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
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I'm appalled by these revelations, but not too surprised. And I'm glad Kennedy was a sensible person (in this instance, anyway).
Oh, and Dr. Gonzo--learn to spell, dammit. "Guarantee" and "juvenile" and "vigilance" are all misspelled in your post. The atrocities you have committed against the English language are outrageous.
Lemonite
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
I too am quite turned off that these things were even planned.. I wrote that above.. but when I refer to the 'needy information', I am referring to this constant desire to know EVERY single aspect of the war, like the 'intelligence' data that has been shown to many of this world's premier leaders and been confirmed.. yet Americans are 'trashing' the presidency for not releasing something that they say is in the nation's best interest to keep a lid on.. THis is what I refer to when I talk about 'not sharing information'.. I tend to believe in the Men In Black style of governing for a large majority of issues.. That any little concern will set our nation in a free for all of panic.. The tyranny is not in the picture because there is enough information coming to the general folk, as well as the other branches of the gov't to check on one another... It is hardly apathy gonz. when if extreme clamoring for interest in evidence or some other piece of news is going to hurt our national security..
And my dear gonz, I appreciate your ideas and thoughts, I acknowledge you've got some good points.. and some bad ones.. this time some ok ones.. but the vehemence behind your words seems to be nonproductive...or at least witless... and for some reason I didn't convey that my views were not as extreme on this issue as I had written.. I love the keyboard.. I'll be seeing you for round two... I suggest the second Stall with the broken flush handle...
OFf to take my second Final.. Yippee
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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Yeep, if that happened (and that's a big IF), it happened 40 years ago - long before you were born, probably. So what is your point? You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
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Dr.Gonzo wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
Does it even begin to matter if it happened a year before I was born or 20? Our government planned to commit mass murder and terrorism on a scale that would make Al-Queda blush. Why shouldn't I care? What garuntee do I have that this shit is not going on now?
80sU2isBest:
Doctor Gonzo, you are something else. And that's being nice. You are a complete enigma. I will never ever understand you. This was NOT a plan devised by the US government. It was devised by certain people in teh government but quickly shot down by superiors. Now, I ask you again - are you going to hold it against the goevernment for a bad plan that was devised by people who were obviously lunatics, but then rightfully rejected by their calmer, more rational supervisors - all over 40 years ago?
Yeep, if that happened (and that's a big IF), it happened 40 years ago - long before you were born, probably. So what is your point? You now hate America because of things that happened before you were born?
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Dr.Gonzo wrote:
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
Does it even begin to matter if it happened a year before I was born or 20? Our government planned to commit mass murder and terrorism on a scale that would make Al-Queda blush. Why shouldn't I care? What garuntee do I have that this shit is not going on now?
80sU2isBest:
Doctor Gonzo, you are something else. And that's being nice. You are a complete enigma. I will never ever understand you. This was NOT a plan devised by the US government. It was devised by certain people in teh government but quickly shot down by superiors. Now, I ask you again - are you going to hold it against the goevernment for a bad plan that was devised by people who were obviously lunatics, but then rightfully rejected by their calmer, more rational supervisors - all over 40 years ago?
This is one of the funniest threads I have every read.
Can we do an age check so I can put some perspective on this discussion?
Can we do an age check so I can put some perspective on this discussion?
Holy John
Acrobat
While we're in the subject of Cuba, the United States released a list of countries that support terrorism and one of them is Cuba. I just find that ridiculous. While I do not support Castro I00%, I have to give credit to Cuba for being the first country to have openly speaken to create an International Coalition against terrorism (check out the United Nations site in the General Assembly section). Of course, Cuba, being an unimportant country, wasn't heard by the international medias. Also, Cuba sent help in the United States for the victims of the World Trade Center Attacks. That passed unmentionned by the medias, of course. I don't quite believe that Cuba wants to destroy the United States, by helping them in crisis situations like what happened on Sept. II. I know a Cuban spy was being arrested and is subject to prison for life, but every country uses spies. It is to remember that the CIA drops bacteriological stuff on the Cuban Agricultural fields, making devastations (in '97, Cuba lost half of his bovine production).
It is not hating the US for what they did 40 years ago "before we were born". History is important and no one must reject it. While we can't do anything for something that happened 40 years ago, we can still remember and it still does play an important fact regarding the Cuban / USA political relations. It is not because Cuba openly speaks out (check again the United Nations debates) against the politics of the United States that Cuba wants to destroy it. And it is not by the Helms Law that the USA will calm things down. In this debate, every fact is important.
Cheers
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?Je</A> suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me d?fendrai...?
"I am the last man. Against all, I shall defend myself..."
- 'Rhinoc?ros', Ionesco
It is not hating the US for what they did 40 years ago "before we were born". History is important and no one must reject it. While we can't do anything for something that happened 40 years ago, we can still remember and it still does play an important fact regarding the Cuban / USA political relations. It is not because Cuba openly speaks out (check again the United Nations debates) against the politics of the United States that Cuba wants to destroy it. And it is not by the Helms Law that the USA will calm things down. In this debate, every fact is important.
Cheers
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United Nations : www.un.org - UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund) : www.unicef.org
UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) : <A HREF="http://www.unesco.org
?Je" TARGET=_blank>www.unesco.org
?Je</A> suis le dernier homme. Contre tous, je me d?fendrai...?
"I am the last man. Against all, I shall defend myself..."
- 'Rhinoc?ros', Ionesco
Lemonite
I'm a chauvinist leprechaun
I will say this about history and what not.. as I have written this before, but Man is the only animal that does not learn from its mistakes, Wars happen over and over again for teh same reasons, but there never is, and most likely never will be a solution, And going back through history, mankind in general, has made the same errors, and they have caused teh same problems now that they did three hundred years ago.. except a musket was drawn.. powdered.. packed.. aimed.. then aimed again to account for the wind.. then aimed again to account for teh bent barrel, then fired, whereas, now people just pull a nine or an AK and fire freely...
In this respect I do honor history... Well.. that and Ms. Hepburn
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