The Toll Grows Higher

[pax]

C'est la vie.

If you want to get the thread "back" to that, why not make a post in that direction, rather than continuing this argument?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

'That's how he was. He was good to everybody'

By Suzanne Smalley and Mac Daniel, Globe Staff | December 23, 2004

FREEDOM, Maine -- At the credit union that helped prepare his finances before he shipped out for Iraq, the 13 stuffed camels sent by Lynn Robert Poulin Sr. served as a constant reminder of the quiet and simple man serving abroad for the first time.

Yesterday, the camels also symbolized something else: the sacrifice and loss of a man who spent half his 47 years in the National Guard and who grew up in a log cabin deep in the woods in a tiny town west of Waterville and south of Unity.

''And even folks who come into the credit union and didn't know Lynn know where the camels came from," said Jennifer DeChant, a marketing specialist. ''We tell them."

Sergeant Poulin was one of two Maine guardsmen killed in an attack on a mess tent near Mosul on Tuesday. In July, the Five County Credit Union office on Washington Street in nearby Bath received a package from Mosul, containing the 13 camels with a short note from Poulin that read in part, ''Hope you enjoy these."

''That says Lynn right there," said Michael Keenan, president of Local S6, the machinists union for Bath Iron Works, where Poulin worked as a structural ship fitter for 17 years and where flags flew at half-staff yesterday. ''That's how he was. He was good to everybody around him."

He came home on leave in October and visited the credit union again, where employees waited in line to shake his hand.

''He was making his rounds in the lobby, and everyone was waving," DeChant recalled yesterday. ''I just remember what a happy individual he was, how obviously happy he was to be home, and how beaming his wife was to be with him."

The credit union soon reciprocated, sending Poulin's 133d Engineer Battalion 130 pounds of goodies, including books, footballs, toothpaste, and granola bars. They internally dubbed the effort ''Operation Camel Reply."

Poulin quickly wrote back: ''The toys and games were a big hit among the local children."

Until the moment a National Guard representative arrived at her job, Jeanne Poulin thought her husband of five years was safe.

''She literally melted," said Patty Taylor, director of human resources at Orion Ropeworks.

Taylor said Jeanne Poulin's colleagues gathered yesterday to have a moment of silence in Poulin's honor and to discuss how to raise money so that Poulin can afford to stay out of work beyond the normal three days of paid grievance leave.

Jeanne Poulin spent yesterday grieving inside the couple's trailer -- just across the road from the log cabin where his mother still lives -- with her mother-in-law, her sister, and other family members.

''She knew there had been strife, but didn't think it was him," said her sister, Barbara Worthley, who spoke to reporters on the family's behalf. ''You never want to think that. . . . She's in shock. She has lost her best friend."

A car in the driveway was adorned with bumper stickers, including one reading, ''Half of my heart is in Iraq," and a yellow ribbon that said ''Support our Troops." Yet another sticker -- this one red, white, and blue -- read, ''A6133, you're #1."

Worthley said Poulin was in regular contact with family and friends and called his wife daily, sometimes twice a day. He never talked about being afraid.

''He said, 'Don't worry about me, I'm out of harm's way,' " Worthley said. ''He never wanted to be the focus of anything."

He left behind two grown sons, Michael and Lynn Robert Jr. He also has two stepchildren, Worthley said.

Poulin attended Mount View High School in Thorndike, Maine, Worthley said. He liked to work on cars and went fishing, but otherwise had few hobbies, she said.

''He came from plain roots, but he was happy," Worthley said. ''It was a good life. . . . He was proud of his service in the guard."

Worthley said Poulin's death during the Christmas season is especially difficult because the family has a large gathering on Christmas Eve.

However, she said there is some comfort in that Poulin was proud to serve.

''He felt strongly that his country asked him to do something," Worthley said. ''That's all I can say about it."

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

'It's hard to believe he's not coming home'

By Maria Sacchetti and Mac Daniel, Globe Staff | December 23, 2004

SOMERVILLE, Maine -- Until he left in January, Thomas John Dostie's world revolved around his tiny hometown, at the end of a narrow road 18 miles from the nearest supermarket.

He was raised on a street where everyone knew him, in a brown clapboard house with a view of Long Pond. He water-skied and fished for bass and pickerel in the summer. Friends said his father had a snowmobile waiting for Dostie's return home.

Yesterday, the outgoing family was cloistered in its home mourning the 20-year-old who joined the Army National Guard when he was in high school and was killed this week in Iraq. People streamed into the house with flowers, food, and tears in their eyes, stopping to hug one another on the icy street.

They remembered the wiry, brown-haired boy who loved to tinker with engines large and small and who welcomed the many foster children his parents took in. Some say that helped make Dostie who he was: kind, unselfish, and outgoing, trying to make strangers feel comfortable.

''He was just a good-hearted person," said his godfather, John Houllahan, 40, who was a foster child with the family when he was growing up and remains close. ''It's hard to believe he's not coming home."

Last night, about 100 friends and townspeople held a candlelight vigil at the local volunteer fire department, where Dostie's father is chief.

Dostie, known as Tom or Tommy, lived his whole life on Frye Road, with parents Mike and Peggy, both 50, and his older brother Tim, 22, who lives at home.

Tom Dostie and his brother were raised in the camaraderie on the narrow, piney road where neighbors helped each other to build seasonal camps into sturdy year-round homes on the pond. The boys played baseball in the road, gawked at the wild turkeys and occasional moose that traipsed across their yards, and played with Dostie's dog, Ginger.

Dostie attended St. Denis Church in Whitefield with his parents, both devout Catholics.

Dostie was a wrestler in high school at Erskine Academy, a nearby private school. He struggled with his grades sometimes, but graduated in 2002.

In his junior year, he joined the National Guard to gain experience as a diesel mechanic and possibly pay for trade school.

He did his basic training the summer before his senior year and his advanced training after graduation.

He worked for his father's lawn-mowing business until he was called up last year, two days before Thanksgiving.

Houllahan said Dostie wanted to blaze his own path. ''I think he was pretty proud when he joined the military," Houllahan said. ''He was really doing his own thing."

Dostie was proud of his service in Iraq and liked what he was learning, friends said, but the camp was a long way from home. He was ready to return.

Dostie was not initially assigned to the 133d Engineer Battalion but was transferred in because there were not enough diesel mechanics to go around, said family friend and neighbor Ron Cyr, 50, whose two sons were called to active duty in the Guard the same day as Dostie.

Ronnie Cyr, 27, the younger son, was at the same camp as Dostie but was in bed when the mess hall exploded Tuesday. Cyr jumped out of bed and raced to the blast site. Soldiers coming out told him that Dostie was in there.

Cyr called his father yesterday to let Dostie's parents know that a priest had given their son last rites.

''He's pretty shook up, pretty broken up," Ron Cyr said of his son, Ronnie. ''He was close to Tommy."

Charles Manchester, 60, principal of Somerville Elementary School, first learned of Dostie's death through the faces of the audience on Tuesday night at the school's Christmas program.

As the school's 43 students sang and performed skits, Manchester said, ''I noticed there were some sad faces and a couple of people were crying. Then I found out what happened, and I thought, 'Oh, my God.' "

Over punch, coffee, and cookies afterward, students, parents, and teachers went silent.

 

[pax]

 

[deep]

I have a feeling that people are going to get really tired of this. People don't like it when bodies are coming home in caskets or whatever, no matter how they felt about the war.

from page 2

 

[pax]

Damn.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A roadside bomb attack northwest of Baghdad killed seven U.S. soldiers Thursday, military officials tell CNN.

The attack occurred at about 6 p.m. (10 a.m. EDT), an official said. The soldiers were said to be from the Army's Task Force Baghdad, but no other details were available.

 

[Scarletwine]

the latest estimates from watchdog blogs were 4100 dead - no matter I pray for all the families.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I do not think that this is the thread for such questionable figures on the casualties.

 

[hiphop]

the latest estimates from watchdog blogs were 4100 dead - no matter I pray for all the families.

4100? That´s supposedly more than the number of people who died in the WTC.

Isn´t it amazing how a - kinda fictional - construction like a nation-state is allowed to send non-fictional constructions like people to war.

Yeah, the human race is a real mindfuck.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Look, if we want to start commenting on that figure then can there be another thread, this isn't the place to discuss a number that infers a massive conspiracy with the global press and pentagon in on it as well as the families of the extra 3000 soldiers who according to these watchdog blogs are dead.

 

[STING2]

This thread is to honor the troops who have died in Iraq. It is not for posting political opinions, conspiracy theory's, or anything that other members would find offensive, or to be politically inspired in any way. Anything that goes beyond the posts which, consistently honor the troops who have died without listing anything that is political or controversial, should go into another thread, not this one.

 

[pax]

Please start another thread to debate the correctness of casualty figures or alternative body counts. This thread is only to post reports on/factual stories about coalition troops killed in Iraq.

As if we ALL DIDN'T KNOW THIS BY NOW.

Thank you.

 

[hiphop]

This thread is to honor the troops who have died in Iraq.

This thread is only to post reports on/factual stories about coalition troops killed in Iraq.

Those two quotes don´t really mean the same.. if I may.. I´ll rather go with the post of the moderator.

However, in remembrance and honor of the civilian victims, who shall not be forgotten - even if "this thread is exclusively reserved for coalition troops" [what a weird exclusivity, by the way] - you may take a look at http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

 

[A_Wanderer]

You want to post one on Iraqi casualties then please start another thread.

 

[hiphop]

Since the link only covered half of 285 replies in a thread that a highly estimted longtime Interferencer named Dreadsox has started, I am relatively sure the starter of this thread would not complain about a short candle, so to say, for civilian victims.

However, I don´t want to distract you from counting dead American soldiers. Please go on.

 

[deep]

This thread is to honor the troops who have died in Iraq.

sorry sting


but, this is not true

re read the first 5-6 pages of this thread


btw,

The administration is manipulating the numbers anyway.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Whatever those pages say, the intention of the thread developed into a memorial thread. Anyone can start their own for other discussion purposes.

Maybe this thread should just be deleted-I thought it was one of the few "positive" things around here. I give up.

 

[pax]

Please don't give up, MrsSpringsteen. You've done a better job than anyone of maintaining the spirit of the thread.

Do carry on, in spite of those who want to continue to bring arguments and discord into the one thread around here we've reserved for peace and prayer.

One last time, kids: Other discussion=new thread.

Thanks.

 

[pax]

From Dreadsox himself, page 4...

Come on guys...this thread has been freaking politic free for almost its entirety. Please...start your own thread to argue the points of troop rotations ect.

So, yeah.

 

[Dreadsox]

Having started the thread and looked at my first four pages of posts it was pretty clear to me that the thread was a memorial. Most people have been respectdul of its intent when warned. the thread gives me hope.

 

[hiphop]

Right, paxetaurora. I didn´t bring in politics, did I?

I do think my comment was just in line with peace, prayer, and the memorial thread purpose. Just so everyone knows, peace and prayer are not meant to be exclusive. Never were, never will be.

However, I may also note that "peace/ prayer" and "post reports on/factual stories about coalition troops killed in Iraq" don´t necessarily mean the same thing.

Correct me if I´m wrong.

The intention of this post is not to steer further discomfort, but to make it clear that I am suspicious of the "us and them" mentality. If civilian victims are not even allowed to be mentioned here, you are following an "us and them" mentality. Therefore, your efforts regarding peace and prayer might be useless, because both peace and prayer only and exclusively work with a "we" mentality.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I guess I was just so wrong to post all of those "counts" and "stories" I posted.

I won't post any more of them so as to not offend anyone here. It's me (us) vs them, and I don't give a damn about "them" .Thanks for the judgment and assessment of my character, I appreciate it. Usually I see things like this here and I just never say anything, it's not worth it to me to get stressed out over a msg board. And I try to maintain a calm and rational temperament on here, but this is worth it to me, well it was.

Once again, I give up.

 

[pax]

Look, can we compromise here somewhat? The intent of the thread is to be peaceful/prayerful as we observe the deaths of those who fought in this war.

I personally have no problem with also noting woundings and civilian casualties, so long as we can avoid nastiness in this thread.

We all need to decide what we want this thread to be, or we need to close it and start over again.

 

[pax]

Just out of curiosity, how would folks feel about a poll? I could post one (in War, so as to discourage the non-War regulars from weighing in) and collect some thoughts from everyone, and whatever the majority rules, that's how this thread (or a new thread) will go and I will moderate accordingly and instruct the other mods to moderate accordingly.

Since I can see and partially agree with both sides of the argument, this seems fair to me. Any takers?

 

[Scarletwine]

Sounds great Pax.

Mrs. Springsteen - I appreciate your postsvery much.
I do think the wounded should not be off limits.

Civilians in another thread maybe?

 

[Dreadsox]

I now officially want to barf. A thread that has been respectful for how many pages is being disrupted for what? To make a point.

Every other poster, who has been reminded of the intent of this thread has followed the rules when asked to. Now we are going to vote on it after how many posts?

Why can't another thread be started to satisfy others. Why does it have to boil down to us against them?

Please do not close this thread.....It is approaching two years old...deal with the person.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I agree w/ Dreadsox

I think it's very sad that there can't be a thread like this here w/ out problems being created over it. Not surprising, but sad nonetheless. Sorry, but I *think* I had the right to say what I said today after just keeping silent for so long about it.

This thread gave me hope too

 

[hiphop]

Army Sgt. 1st Class Brian A. Mack

36, of Phoenix; assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.; killed Jan. 13 when an improvised explosive device hit his military vehicle in Mosul, Iraq.

Army Pfc. Gunnar D. Becker

19, of Forestburg, S.D.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 63rd Armor Regiment, 1st Infantry Division, Vilseck, Germany; died Jan. 13 of non-combat-related injuries in Mosul, Iraq.

Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew W. Holloway

21, of Fulton, Texas; assigned to 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division, Marine Forces Reserve, Corpus Christi, Texas; died Jan. 13 of injuries sustained due to enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq.

Marine Lance Cpl. Juan R. Rodriguez Velasco

23, of El Cenizo, Texas; assigned to 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division, Marine Forces Reserve, Corpus Christi, Texas; died Jan. 13 of injuries sustained due to enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq.

Army Spc. Michael J. Smith

24, of Media, Pa.; assigned to 1st Battalion, 503rd Infantry, 2nd Infantry Division, Camp Casey, Korea; killed Jan. 11 when his military vehicle was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade in Ramadi, Iraq.

Army Staff Sgt. William F. Manuel

34, of Kinder, La.; assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 156th Infantry Regiment, 256th Infantry Brigade, Louisiana Army National Guard, Lake Charles, La.; killed Jan. 10 when an improvised explosive device hit his military vehicle in Baghdad. Also killed was Army Sgt. Robert W. Sweeney III.

 

[pax]

I see what both of you are saying, Dread and MrsSpringsteen, but it's not just "one person," as you put it--and their concerns are, I believe, valid.

It would still be possible to have one thread committed to memorials for coalition soldiers only. The poll I'm contemplating is going to have a lot of options.

I take some flak from time to time for how I, and others, mod FYM, but offer a democratic option and people don't like that either.

I'll post the poll later today.