The Tea Party

[AEON]

...but it does sound suspiciously close to the mantra that was going on during the housing bubble, "Home ownership is the key to middle-class wealth." So buy a bigger, more expensive house now! What are you, a loser?

Yes, you are right on with this.

 

[Irvine511]

I'd comment on this if I could hear you over the noise of my absurd bills to go to a public university. Over $100,000.

if taxes were lower, you'd be able to afford your public university.

right?

after all, the only reason Memphis has been paying off his student loans from his own public university for the past 10 years is because our taxes are too high.

 

[Bluer White]

after all, the only reason Memphis has been paying off his student loans from his own public university for the past 10 years is because our taxes are too high.

10 years? That's pretty common I think.

 

[Irvine511]

10 years? That's pretty common I think.

with a good 10 more to go.

 

[Irvine511]

so, where do the Tea Partiers wish to begin cutting defense?

 

[AEON]

so, where do the Tea Partiers wish to begin cutting defense?

I can't speak for Tea Partiers - but I certainly think we can cut defense. I am more in favor of a quicker, lighter, deadlier force (increased reliance on special forces and technology and less reliance on the huge sys admin force).

 

[Bluer White]

with a good 10 more to go.

Public tuition does vary a lot between states. But in general I think it provides a good value to both state and student, no matter how you choose to pay off your loans.

Anyway, it's up to each state to decide how much to subsidize their public universities. I'd rather it happen at that level rather than Washington, D.C.

 

[Irvine511]

Public tuition does vary a lot between states. But in general I think it provides a good value to both state and student, no matter how you choose to pay off your loans.

Anyway, it's up to each state to decide how much to subsidize their public universities. I'd rather it happen at that level rather than Washington, D.C.

the point i'm trying to make is that students have to incur incredible amounts of debt at even state universities in a world where a college degree is essential to making even a lower-middle class income, and simply lowering taxes -- the Tea Party raison d'etre -- is an inane approach to problems like public education. more, treating public education like a marketplace is exactly the wrong way to go about dealing with the issue, and the same with health care.

 

[DontExpect]

I can't speak for Tea Partiers - but I certainly think we can cut defense. I am more in favor of a quicker, lighter, deadlier force (increased reliance on special forces and technology and less reliance on the huge sys admin force).

I don't know too much about how defense money is appropriated, but I'm worried that a "quicker, lighter, deadlier force" is what the branches of the military ARE going for these days; this means more expensive aircraft, stealthier machinery that costs hundreds of millions of dollars to manufacture, and massive contracts to revamp the combat uniforms of soldiers and turn them into truly 21st century/futuristic-looking warriors. Unfortunately, these expensive and pioneering programs represent much of the $$ that bloats the defense budget.

Sure, we can make strides in reducing the size of our armed forces bases around the world; there's been recent criticism of bases in unstable countries throughout Central Asia, for example. But if we want the ability to do all the things that a more effective, stealthier military ought to do, we will still need these safe havens and landing strips to accomplish our missions.

For both sides — conservatives and liberals — it seems like it's going to get really hard to separate the rhetoric that surrounds 'Defense-Speak' from what kind of serious defense spending reform we're willing to support.

I'm not looking forward to hearing this debate on Cable News/online news sites, etc...they don't seem to do a very good job of channeling emotions into good dialogue

 

[INDY500]

so, where do the Tea Partiers wish to begin cutting defense?

Don't ask so they won't have to tell.

 

[Irvine511]

Don't ask so they won't have to tell.

certainly, the elimination in that policy will save millions, and it will also mean that the 3-4 dozen fluent-in-arabic-and-farsi translators wouldn't have been kicked out of the military, so bonus for good intelligence, and with good intelligence, we might not have wasted $1T in Mesopotamia.

 

[Bluer White]

the point i'm trying to make is that students have to incur incredible amounts of debt at even state universities in a world where a college degree is essential to making even a lower-middle class income, and simply lowering taxes -- the Tea Party raison d'etre -- is an inane approach to problems like public education. more, treating public education like a marketplace is exactly the wrong way to go about dealing with the issue

I get your point about big debt, but what are you suggesting? The taxpayer is responsible for K-thru-12 education. Would you make the taxpayer responsible for K-thru-16?

I wonder what the Tea Party would say about removing the marketplace for college degrees...

(and centralizing it in state capitals and D.C.)

 

[Irvine511]

I get your point about big debt, but what are you suggesting? The taxpayer is responsible for K-thru-12 education. Would you make the taxpayer responsible for K-thru-16?

I wonder what the Tea Party would say about removing the marketplace for college degrees...

(and centralizing it in state capitals and D.C.)

i'm suggesting that taxes are a necessary evil, and state education should be heavily subsidized so that more citizens are able to get a college education regardless of their ability to pay. i also think it's criminal to start saddling an 18 year old with $100,000 in debt.

 

[AliEnvy]

i also think it's criminal to start saddling an 18 year old with $100,000 in debt.

Not when what's desired in the current state of affairs is a cheap, obedient debt slave on the corporate ladder. Works perfectly for that.

 

[martha]

Will you read the whole thing? Or dismiss it out of hand?

Ephphatha Poetry: "Imagine if the Tea Party Was Black" - Tim Wise

Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protester — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that’s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation’s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country’s political leaders if the need arose.

Imagine that a black radio host were to suggest that the only way to get promoted in the administration of a white president is by “hating black people,” or that a prominent white person had only endorsed a white presidential candidate as an act of racial bonding, or blamed a white president for a fight on a school bus in which a black kid was jumped by two white kids, or said that he wouldn’t want to kill all conservatives, but rather, would like to leave just enough—“living fossils” as he called them—“so we will never forget what these people stood for.” After all, these are things that Rush Limbaugh has said, about Barack Obama’s administration, Colin Powell’s endorsement of Barack Obama, a fight on a school bus in Belleville, Illinois in which two black kids beat up a white kid, and about liberals, generally.

 

[DontExpect]

Love it! Thanks for the link

 

[Bluer White]

i'm suggesting that taxes are a necessary evil, and state education should be heavily subsidized so that more citizens are able to get a college education regardless of their ability to pay.

Taxes are necessary. State-sponsored college education is already subsidized. And the states are broke. The Feds are broke.

 

[PhilsFan]

Do you think it's possible the rising cost of tuition is connected to vast amounts of low interest, government backed loans that were put into the system the last 10 years?

If everyone in the country has $100,000 to spend on college - then all colleges will charge at least $100,000 to attend (the more select will make the cost even higher.)

Just a thought.

That's a massive stretch you're trying to go for there.

I was unable to get a loan for college. I worked from the age of thirteen till the age of eighteen. Every dollar I earned was gone by the end of my first semester. I still have no loan.

 

[Bluer White]

That's a massive stretch you're trying to go for there.

I was unable to get a loan for college. I worked from the age of thirteen till the age of eighteen. Every dollar I earned was gone by the end of my first semester. I still have no loan.

Did your family's income factor in?

 

[deep]

That's a massive stretch you're trying to go for there.

I was unable to get a loan for college. I worked from the age of thirteen till the age of eighteen. Every dollar I earned was gone by the end of my first semester. I still have no loan.

if you have no loan

then you are not in debt, that's good.

 

[PhilsFan]

Did your family's income factor in?

Yes.

 

[PhilsFan]

if you have no loan

then you are not in debt, that's good.

I'm indebted to my parents, who are able to pay for it at the moment. Once my brothers begin college, they will no longer be able to, and we have no idea what we'll do then.

 

[coolian2]

if you have no loan

then you are not in debt, that's good.

and? you do realise that, as down to earth as he is about it, his situation is really, really unlikely to be the norm for a huge percentage of people who want a degree, let alone a specialised one only offered in so many places?

 

[Irvine511]

Taxes are necessary. State-sponsored college education is already subsidized. And the states are broke. The Feds are broke.

and why is that?

 

[kramwest1]

I don't understand why state colleges' and universities' tuition is not tied to the inflation rate. Any increase above the inflation rate makes tuition exclusionary. The mission of state schools is to allow access to higher education to all those who want it. It's one of the promises that states have made to their populations.

No question states are in the financial hole, but well-educated citizens is only going to help fix that.

 

[anitram]

Not when what's desired in the current state of affairs is a cheap, obedient debt slave on the corporate ladder. Works perfectly for that.

If you took a look at my law school's graduating class and you focused specifically on the top students (ie. the 10% on the Dean's List), that would leave you with 16 individuals. 14 of those ended up in large, corporate firms and 2 went to clerk for judges.

If we did not have this level of student debt and if large, corporate firms didn't pay really well and on top of that gave you additional incentives like signing bonuses and tuition bonuses, how many of the 14 might have gone and done social justice work? Not all and not even the majority but maybe 2 or 3 may have.

So for those who want our universities to be a giant deregulated free-market free for all, maybe it would be wise to consider how much that will affect the path of the nation's best and brightest. This has come up in discussions here on the forum - why are the brightest young people going to work in financial institutions, corporate law, investment banks and so on, rather than doing more "productive" work? Why does such a large bulk of my med school friends go into very lucrative practices such as plastics or radiology instead of going to serve in poor or remote communities? Well it shouldn't really be that much of a surprise.

 

[corianderstem]

Ephphatha Poetry: "Imagine if the Tea Party Was Black" - Tim Wise

An interesting essay. I anticipate that the comments here will echo the variety of comments on that blog, or those I'm already seeing on Facebook.

We know where the lines are, and who's going to comment on which side of those lines, but I thought it was good food for thought.

If it just turns into more of Ye Olde FYM Internet Slapfight, then I apologize in advance.

 

[martha]

Will you read the whole thing? Or dismiss it out of hand?

Ephphatha Poetry: "Imagine if the Tea Party Was Black" - Tim Wise

Were you all waiting for this to get pushed back to the next page?

C'mon, tea party sympathizers. No tsk-tsking about another "playing of the 'race card'"? No sputtering indignantly, citing the two or three black guys at these rallies? No further defense of Rush "He's No Racist, He's Just a Commentator" Limbaugh?

 

[corianderstem]

Oh dang, Martha. Sorry about that!

 

[martha]

No. I was going to repost mine anyway. Now two of us have brought it up. What do you think? I think the tea party pals will avoid these posts for as long as they can. It's their pattern. They do it all the time, every time someone brings up something really uncomfortable for their cause. But now that you brought it up, too, they may actually have to address it. We'll see. I won't hold my breath.