the surge is working!

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Irvine511

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finally, someone has the courage to speak truth to action and demand that President Bush stand up to the Defeatocrats!



[q]Moment of Truth for the President

by William Kristol
07/09/2007 12:20:00 PM

The New York Times leads today with David Sanger's story, "In White House, Debate Is Rising On Iraq Pullback; Political Considerations; Not Waiting For Sept. 15, Aides Seek to Forestall G.O.P. Defections." The piece is tendentious, as one would expect--but THE WEEKLY STANDARD has confirmed that there are real discussions going on at the White House, with advocates of what is being called "The Grand Bargain" pushing hard for the president to move soon to announce plans to pull back in Iraq. So this week will not only be a week of (mostly silly) debate on the Hill; it will also be an important moment of truth for the president, who will have to decide whether to give Gen. Petraeus and the soldiers a chance, or to accept the counsel of some of his advisers and begin to throw in the towel on Iraq.

Let me be clear: The president ordered the "surge," which only recently came to full strength and whose major operation has been going on for less than a month. If he were not to give it a chance to work, he would properly be viewed as a feckless, irresolute president, incapable of seeing his own strategy through a couple of months of controversy before abandoning it. He will have asked our soldiers to go on the offensive, assuming greater risk of casualties--and then, even though the offensive is working better than expected, will have pulled the plug on their efforts.

Indeed, the White House is living in a fool's paradise if they imagine that "compromising" now and in this way buys them anything. Even the New York Times editorial page has abandoned the pretence that its preferred strategy will lead to anything other than catastrophe in Iraq, and in the very near term. If the president gives in now, he will not be credited with a statesmanlike compromise. He will be lambasted by the left for fighting a bad war, and by the right for fighting it badly, recommitting us to the fight, and then losing it. The remainder of his term will be mired in congressional investigations as the waters fill with blood and the sharks go in for the kill. The Democrats will be emboldened to press him on every front, especially since Iraq is virtually the only position he's actually been defending. Lame duck does not even begin to describe where President Bush will be if he does this.

What's more, the president will lose any ability to mitigate the effects of the withdrawal or control it. The pullout will become a wild hell-for-leather race for the exit, and the result will be a triumph for al Qaeda and Iran, and a moral and geopolitical disaster for the United States.

The best strategy for the president is to hold firm. There is every reason to believe that he can survive the current calamity-Janes of the Republican party (does anyone really imagine that a veto-proof majority will form in the Senate this week or next?). This nonsense will pass, Congress will go on recess, and Petraeus will have a chance to continue to produce results--and the president and his allies will have a chance to gain political ground here at home. Why on earth pull the plug now? Why give in to an insane, irrational panic that will destroy the Bush administration and most likely sweep the Republican party to ruin? The president still has a chance to emerge from this as a visionary who could see what the left could not--but not if he gives in to them. There is no safety in the position some in the Bush administration are running towards.

Here's what I gather is a basic lesson of tactics: When you find yourself in an ambush, attack into the ambush. Don't twist and turn in the kill zone, looking for a way to retreat. Especially when the ambush is not a powerful one, and the Democrats' position (to mix military metaphors) is way overextended. The Democrats are hoping the president will break and run. They will not allow him a dignified retreat or welcome him with compromise. They will spring to finish him off completely. It doesn't matter what the president's motives are. Some of his advisers are trying to persuade him that he needs to go for a grand bargain now so as to build bipartisan support for his policies when he's gone. But the only way to do that is to hold firm now--and to counterattack. Those who try to convince him otherwise offer nothing but defeat, for the troops, for the mission, and for the president. [/q]
 
The best strategy for the president is to hold firm.

I honestly don't know how anyone can type this or the rest of that dreck with a straight face.

But hey, Kristol is also a big fan of the Iran war, so really, is it any surprise.
 
It is sad that our country won't even give it a chance to succeed. We want to fail in this war, just like Vietnam. We want to lose. We could win this war if we really wanted too, its just we don't have big enough balls to handle the sacrifices that it will cost to do that. We are at war with an idea that involves the death to all of us who believe in the idea of freedoms. Those of you that aren't able to realize that should have been in school in Manhattan when the two planes flew into our towers. Tell the people that lost their lives b/c of barbarians who felt it necessary to fly commercial jetliners into buildings. Those are the type of people that want to take over Iraq, and 1/2 of our country wants to let them do that. Well, shame on us. If those 1200+ died for nothing, so be it. Let us shrivel up and live in our cacoons and wait for the next event to motivate us to do the same thing again. But, Bush should not pull back. He at least owes it to us who lived through the terror.
 
struckpx said:
We could win this war if we really wanted too, its just we don't have big enough balls to handle the sacrifices that it will cost to do that. W

When are you enlisting?
 
struckpx said:
It is sad that our country won't even give it a chance to succeed. We want to fail in this war, just like Vietnam. We want to lose.
Then why the fuck get involved to start with? The 3 year rule was completely ignored and now when it is politically impossible they try and go after the insurgency and consolidate the Iraqi government, moving forward in Anbar years too late cleaning up a mess that never should have started. The politics of it is pretty damn plain since 2004 and 2006 couldn't have any major operations due to the elections just leaving those groups to fester.

Bush should rightly be drummed out given his cocking up since 2003 and obliviousness towards the so-called war on terror (yeah funding the PLO against Hamas won't bite you in the arse).

And yes I supported the removal of Saddam and I still do, but I don't think that Bush was the one to do it on the basis of results; too few troops to start with, no commitment to liberty leading to a democratic dictatorship and the manipulations involved in pushing it too quickly.

And the most fucked up thing is that at the end of the day it isn't America that pays the price for staying or leaving it will be the Iraqi people who were fucked over the first time around being left to the slaughter at Saddam and now to nihilistic Islamists.
 
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BonoVoxSupastar said:


How much of Al Queda was in Iraq before we invaded? How many on those planes were from Iraq?

so now you are saying that you agree that saddam hussein should be in power still?
 
struckpx said:
It is sad that our country won't even give it a chance to succeed. We want to fail in this war, just like Vietnam. We want to lose. We could win this war if we really wanted too, its just we don't have big enough balls to handle the sacrifices that it will cost to do that. We are at war with an idea that involves the death to all of us who believe in the idea of freedoms. Those of you that aren't able to realize that should have been in school in Manhattan when the two planes flew into our towers. Tell the people that lost their lives b/c of barbarians who felt it necessary to fly commercial jetliners into buildings. Those are the type of people that want to take over Iraq, and 1/2 of our country wants to let them do that. Well, shame on us. If those 1200+ died for nothing, so be it. Let us shrivel up and live in our cacoons and wait for the next event to motivate us to do the same thing again. But, Bush should not pull back. He at least owes it to us who lived through the terror.

This war isn't about 9/11 and never was, because Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq till the US was. This war was about, GASP!, W tryin' to finish his Daddy's work. I'm sure he's hated Iraq since his Dad's reign, and he can't look at it with reason because of that.

This war isn't accomplishing anything. The goal has never been clear. To fight terrorism, you can't fight nations, because it's not nations that do these things! It's radical groups! It doesn't make sense at all.

If we pull out of Iraq, it won't end the fight against terrorism. We're not saying to shrivel up and live in our cacoons, but you can't fight wars like this anymore. It's much more small-scale, with covert missions and such. Unfortunately for W, that doesn't bring the publicity. So, he went to war.

Iraq is not the enemy. Radical terrorist groups are.
 
struckpx said:


when the time calls, i will serve my country proudly.

You're turning 18 soon, right? Well guess what, good news! Your country needs you. They can't get enough people to enlist and you're just the right age.

After all, you don't want to lose, right? And as you said:

We could win this war if we really wanted too, its just we don't have big enough balls to handle the sacrifices that it will cost to do that.
 
struckpx said:


when the time calls, i will serve my country proudly.
Empty verbiage, although the criticism is a bit duplicitous since it could be taken as an argument in favour of military dictatorship. After all what did Truman do compared to MacArthur.
 
struckpx said:


so now you are saying that you agree that saddam hussein should be in power still?

It's possible to disagree with the war and with Hussein.

It should never have been about the US vs. Iraq. It should have been the UN against Iraq. But again, Bush can't look fairly upon the situation because of his grudge since Desert Storm.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Empty verbiage, although the criticism is a bit duplicitous

When you have 17 year olds spouting off about how people are not WILLING TO SACRIFICE, then please, make the sacrifice yourself. How easy it is to live in some upper middle class pampered suburb and dictate to the rest of the population they should send their sons and daughters to die for this lost cause. You want to preach to the world about sacrifice, well, go and fucking sacrifice yourself.

It's really actually rather disgusting to have to read.
 
anitram said:


When you have 17 year olds spouting off about how people are not WILLING TO SACRIFICE, then please, make the sacrifice yourself. How easy it is to live in some upper middle class pampered suburb and dictate to the rest of the population they should send their sons and daughters to die for this lost cause. You want to preach to the world about sacrifice, well, go and fucking sacrifice yourself.

It's really actually rather disgusting to have to read.
At least he doesn't have the vote :shrug:

yet
 
struckpx said:
i am a child of the revolution.

its the idea. not the soldier.^^

No wonder.

Your idea won't get you killed.
 
struckpx said:
We could win this war if we really wanted too, its just we don't have big enough balls to handle the sacrifices that it will cost to do that.

The great irony with that sentiment is that the very last thing the Bush administrations wants is to start making the American people sacrifice for this war. The Bush administration wants the American people to feel comfortable (hence the "go out and go shopping" sentiment after 9/11). The more comfortable and placated the American people are, the less questions they ask and the less they hold their government accountable for.

We are at war with an idea that involves the death to all of us who believe in the idea of freedoms.

If the war is THAT important, THAT crucial to our nation and world, then how in the hell is a modest surge of 30,000 troops enough? If this really is the fight of our generation, why haven't they instituted a draft? I'll tell you why, because the minute they do that, suddenly the American public won't be so indifferent about what goes on in the government. Suddenly you'll find the general public a lot more aware and a lot more concerned about what goes on in government and war. The last thing the Bush administration wants is more scrutiny, so much so that they're willing to sacrifice the running of the war in order to avoid it.


Those of you that aren't able to realize that should have been in school in Manhattan when the two planes flew into our towers. Tell the people that lost their lives b/c of barbarians who felt it necessary to fly commercial jetliners into buildings.

Utter bullshit. The barbarians who did that had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq, and if we hadn't invaded it, wouldn't even BE in Iraq. So excuse me if I find it laughable and pathetic that you're accusing half of this country of not caring about 9/11.

We were making good progress in Afghanistan and had significantly weakened Al Qaeda. We were close to capturing Bin Laden on several occasions. By invading Iraq, toppling the government and plunging the country into chaos, we gave Al Qaeda a new breeding ground, and they took the invitation with glee. The fact that we have fanatics in Iraq with the same mindset of those that were responsible for 9/11 is the direct result of the Bush administration's actions. Period.
 
Diemen said:
We were making good progress in Afghanistan and had significantly weakened Al Qaeda. We were close to capturing Bin Laden on several occasions. By invading Iraq, toppling the government and plunging the country into chaos, we gave Al Qaeda a new breeding ground, and they took the invitation with glee. The fact that we have fanatics in Iraq with the same mindset of those that were responsible for 9/11 is the direct result of the Bush administration's actions. Period.

Exactly!!! Why is this so hard to understand for some people??? :banghead:
 
Diemen said:


The great irony with that sentiment is that the very last thing the Bush administrations wants is to start making the American people sacrifice for this war. The Bush administration wants the American people to feel comfortable (hence the "go out and go shopping" sentiment after 9/11). The more comfortable and placated the American people are, the less questions they ask and the less they hold their government accountable for.



If the war is THAT important, THAT crucial to our nation and world, then how in the hell is a modest surge of 30,000 troops enough? If this really is the fight of our generation, why haven't they instituted a draft? I'll tell you why, because the minute they do that, suddenly the American public won't be so indifferent about what goes on in the government. Suddenly you'll find the general public a lot more aware and a lot more concerned about what goes on in government and war. The last thing the Bush administration wants is more scrutiny, so much so that they're willing to sacrifice the running of the war in order to avoid it.




Utter bullshit. The barbarians who did that had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq, and if we hadn't invaded it, wouldn't even BE in Iraq. So excuse me if I find it laughable and pathetic that you're accusing half of this country of not caring about 9/11.

We were making good progress in Afghanistan and had significantly weakened Al Qaeda. We were close to capturing Bin Laden on several occasions. By invading Iraq, toppling the government and plunging the country into chaos, we gave Al Qaeda a new breeding ground, and they took the invitation with glee. The fact that we have fanatics in Iraq with the same mindset of those that were responsible for 9/11 is the direct result of the Bush administration's actions. Period.

you need to chill out. have you ever been to the middle east? if so, you would understand that things are run differently. i personally have been to amman and tel aviv, both beautiful cities, and they are not run the same way that we believe here. with a new democratically elected government in iraq, it's hard to expect the country to get going in about 3 years. That idea is outrageous. i say 3 years b/c that is the working time this current government has had. although the leader is an iranian bigot, many things have been accomplished, and the surge is working. you should read between your leftist bull shit columns. iraqi civilian deaths were down last month.

so al qaeda had nothing to do w/ 9/11?? funny. check your facts.

saddam hussein murdered more than 1/2 million people. for anyone to defend him here is pathetic and should be axed as well. that is like defending hitler.

there's evidence that al qaeda was working in iraq before hussein was relieved of power.
 
anitram said:


When you have 17 year olds spouting off about how people are not WILLING TO SACRIFICE, then please, make the sacrifice yourself. How easy it is to live in some upper middle class pampered suburb and dictate to the rest of the population they should send their sons and daughters to die for this lost cause. You want to preach to the world about sacrifice, well, go and fucking sacrifice yourself.

It's really actually rather disgusting to have to read.

oh give me a break. who ever says that i wasn't going to sign up. stop jumping to conclusions. me reading this is pathetic.
 
struckpx said:
there's evidence that al qaeda was working in iraq before hussein was relieved of power.

You are one of the least informed posters I've ever encountered here, but you're also valuable in a sense. I no longer wonder how 43% of your country believes that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Now it makes a lot of sense.

As for that statement, there is also evidence that al Qaeda was and is working in your country as of right now. Apparently you don't differentiate between being present in a country and cavorting with the government. So, let's invade and liberate you.
 
anitram said:


You are one of the least informed posters I've ever encountered here, but you're also valuable in a sense. I no longer wonder how 43% of your country believes that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Now it makes a lot of sense.

As for that statement, there is also evidence that al Qaeda was and is working in your country as of right now. Apparently you don't differentiate between being present in a country and cavorting with the government. So, let's invade and liberate you.

well, you see, there is a difference. liberation is where you free someone or a group of people from something. al qaeda generally straps on a bomb and blows up something. that is hardly liberation. maybe for the jihadist, but that is going against the muslim cause and most muslims would agree in that statement.

i encourage all foreign armies to bring it. i will be happy to send your ass back to where you came from. that would unite all of us under the common cause. as much as we disagree here, try and attack us, we will come together.
 
struckpx said:


you need to chill out. have you ever been to the middle east? if so, you would understand that things are run differently. i personally have been to amman and tel aviv, both beautiful cities, and they are not run the same way that we believe here. with a new democratically elected government in iraq, it's hard to expect the country to get going in about 3 years. That idea is outrageous. i say 3 years b/c that is the working time this current government has had. although the leader is an iranian bigot, many things have been accomplished, and the surge is working. you should read between your leftist bull shit columns. iraqi civilian deaths were down last month.

so al qaeda had nothing to do w/ 9/11?? funny. check your facts.

saddam hussein murdered more than 1/2 million people. for anyone to defend him here is pathetic and should be axed as well. that is like defending hitler.

there's evidence that al qaeda was working in iraq before hussein was relieved of power.
Diemen never defended Saddam, rejecting reporting that you flat out disagree with is stupid (unlike rejecting it because it is fake, e.g. gunmen supposedly murdering teachers only to have no students remember the inncident when the story was chased up) and if your going to make an Iraq - Al Qaeda link you should be more nuanced than just throwing an statement without evidence; Zarqawi's presence in Iraq, Ansar al-Islam or the rumblings in 1998-1999 about an understanding between Saddam and Bin Laden could suffice.

Oh and Goodwins law violation, classy :|
 
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