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Old 07-09-2007, 10:40 PM   #141
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Originally posted by struckpx


which is why you labeled me first as a conservative.
At what point did I do this?

Look, struck, we are all frustrated with you, not because you are conservative, but because when people make a counter-argument, you only do one of three things:

1. Get defensive and begin name calling.
2. Make a counter-argument which doesn't relate to the original argument.
3. Make a counter-argument based on little to no fact whatsoever.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:42 PM   #142
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anyways, I am done w/ this thread. My position has been stated. fun times debating.....
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:48 PM   #143
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Do you agree with what I've said, then?

Have you found a time when I've accused you of being conservative?
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:51 PM   #144
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
Do you agree with what I've said, then?

Have you found a time when I've accused you of being conservative?
No, you called me a conservative. But that is not important.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:53 PM   #145
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:54 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


No, you called me a conservative. But that is not important.
Proof?

ETA - I have mine:

Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


yes, you are also a liberal who has supported everything they have said. of course you would get along.
Irvine, to get back on topic: I disagree with your thread title, the surge isn't working. :ignoressarcasm:

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Old 07-09-2007, 11:07 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

I disagree with your thread title, the surge isn't working.


it is so working.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:09 PM   #148
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it is so working.
i keep getting confused by you. you are for it at times, but also against it at others?

I agree it is working. If you look the number of violence in areas that this new wave of extra troops have been able to penetrate, violence has decreased dramatically.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:15 PM   #149
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Wow. So, uh ... I can see this heat wave in North America has riled ya'll up pretty good.

Mr. Struck, I do believe Mr. Irvine is employing sarcasm with this thread.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:16 PM   #150
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Mr. Struck, I do believe Mr. Irvine is employing sarcasm with this thread.
A tremendous amount, in fact!
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:17 PM   #151
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Mr. Irvine with the sarcasm in the Thread.

I love Clue™.
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:39 AM   #152
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I don't even know what to say anymore




Yay Surge!
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Old 07-10-2007, 07:38 AM   #153
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Irving Kristol is an infamous neocon, so it doesn't surprise me that he's spouting this garbage.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:59 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx

I agree it is working. If you look the number of violence in areas that this new wave of extra troops have been able to penetrate, violence has decreased dramatically.


yes, but the violence has spiked dramatically in areas which had previously been free of violence, and the overall level of violence across Iraq remains higher today than a year ago. it's like whack-a-mole. it most decidedly ISN'T working. the Iraqi government doesn't funciton, Iraqi troops remain incompetent and totally incapable of providing a basic level of security to the Iraqi people. you cannot -- repeat CANNOT -- have a functioning society, democratic or not, without a basic level of security. the only country on earth that is less stable than Iraq is Sudan, and Iraq has 150,000 American troops on the ground! we know that the iraqi "government" has failed to meet ANY of the established benchmarks designed to measure a modicum of political success, and ANYONE will tell you that success in Iraq won't be won militarilty, it will be won politically (the military action is supposed to provide the social stability so that political goals might be met, again, that whole security thing). you'll notice, as well, that the insurgents (for lack of a better word) are getting better and better at blowing shit up.

we are policing a civil war. plain and simple. and keep in mind that the "surge" only has enough troops and funding to last until next March. oh, and the Army fell short if it's recruiting goals AGAIN last month. the present course of action isn't sustainable. as i've said, if you really want to "win" in Iraq, we'll send 300,000-500,000 troops -- many of whom will probably have to be drafted, so that's something to look forward to on your next birthday -- and have to employ crushing levels of violence that will make the napalming of North Vietnam look like child's play. the sectarian hatred that has gripped "iraq" for centuries has been uncorked by the removal of a muderous dictator, and the past 3 years have given each side enough blood to justify another 3 centuries of violence.

please explain to me how continuing to occupy a Muslim country -- against the wishes of the American people and the Iraqi people -- is good for the US, good for Iraq, and good for the Middle East, especially when, as the 2006 National Intelligence Estimate told us, our presence in Iraq has increased terrorism?

if you actually want to look for progress in Iraq, turn away from the surge and look towards Anbar. there, the Sunnis have decided that the Al-Qaeda element is actually too fanatical for their tastes, and locals have taken it upon themselves to fight back.

the only strategy i can see would be to withdraw, and redeploy to Kurdistan, thereby removing the American element from central Iraq -- and especially Baghdad -- and try to manage from afar.

there will be much more bloodshed, but that might be bloodshed with an endgame, as opposed to the current stalemate.

and it remains your -- and by "your" i mean supporters of the war -- fault.

the blood is on your hands. all of it.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:17 AM   #155
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I was against us going into Iraq when we did. But since we did go in there and screw their country all to hell, I have been a supporter if only to support our troops and to hold out for a strategy which does not abandon the Iraqis to their own fate.

For me, the thought of such a immoral abomination is just unthinkable.

So, as much as it turns my stomach and break my heart, I continue to support our presence there. I continue to be against any form of retreat before the job is done. I am most certainly against any strategy that broadcasts a timeline to the enemy.

Yes the war was wrong to begin with. But it would be an even greater wrong to withdraw now so that the animals even now slaughtering the Iraqis can really get started.

However, I do not buy the notion that this war is unwinnable. I don't think anyone has ever really tried to win it in the first place by dealing with realities as they in fact are on the ground.

I firmly place the blame for this first on Rumsfeld for his idiotic insistance that we could win Iraq on our terms without enough troops to do the job and only then on Bush for being so damn stubbornly loyal to him.

I think we need to continue to support the surge as long as the Army can sustain it. We can't know the future results of our actions now, but militarily it does seem to be working. Even more cause to hope on this front is that the tribes in the provinces where the insurgency and the terrorists have had free reign have now switched sides.

If that can happen, this late in the game, then I can see some hope that this kind of good news can spread from the grass roots and the provinces upwards where it really needs to be directed. The Iraqi government has been allowed to dick around too long. But if they see the tide turning against them in the way that it is now turning against AQ etc, they will either have to actually do something or else there will be a new government in town one way or the other.

We humans like to think that we can figure everything out, that we can know the future based on what is passed. But there is nothing more unpredictable than human beings and our future. We may in daily life and in ordinary times be creatures of habit and easily known, but when the shit hits the fan, all that goes out the window and there is no telling what will happen.

I think there just might be a chance that if the Army can acheive stability in the trouble provinces and the tribes can keep it, then there just might be a chance that the necessary political solutions will have a chance of succeeding as well.

We need to stay with the surge until the Army says they've done all they can. Then we can and should talk about what to do then.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:18 PM   #156
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[B] I am most certainly against any strategy that broadcasts a timeline to the enemy.

or, do you think that a timeline might serve as motivation to the Iraqi government? that there's a system of dependency in Iraq, and only the threat of the removal of American support -- blood and treasure -- would be enough to get the government to begin to function minimally?


[q]I think we need to continue to support the surge as long as the Army can sustain it. We can't know the future results of our actions now, but militarily it does seem to be working. Even more cause to hope on this front is that the tribes in the provinces where the insurgency and the terrorists have had free reign have now switched sides. [/q]

my understanding is that the "surge" is only sustainable until March of 2008. i would disagree that the "surge" is responsible for the moderately good news coming out of Anbar province. the Sunnis turning against Al-Qaeda has less to do with American troops and more to do with their repulsion against the extremes of Al-Qaeda. sure, there's American assistance, but the Americans are not doing the bulk of the fighting in Anbar. while it is the Sunnis who are the group most opposed to the US occupation, they seem to have decided that the US presence is a good thing as their support will help them fight their enemies -- the Shia and Al-Qaeda. what seems to be going on there is the whole enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend. i think this is probably the only workable strategy in the Middle East -- where everyone hates everyone else already -- and it does not require 150,000 Americans on the ground.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:01 PM   #157
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Irvine,

I think the key word I used was broadcast. Sure I think that privately, diplomatically, whatever you might call it, there should be a timeline and we should mean it. I am all for leaning hard on them.

I just don't want AQ and all the world to know about it.

I happen to disagree. I think the troops gave the tribes the enouragement and firepower that they needed. They could not have turned on AQ with any success before we came in or else they would of. The two things happened to come together at the same time creating opportunity on the ground. Both the troops and the tribes should be given equal credit for the success of the current ops. I think that once the nest of vipers is cleaned out, the tribes should be able to keep them out in the future. (They welcomed them in the first place. I don't think that AQ can overcome a united tribal front against them.)

I don't see any reason not to stay with the surge until its time is up. Like I said, after that we can move to other strategies. I will not so glibly accept the kind of bloodshed that would ensue if we abandon Iraq and hole up in Kurdistan as you say, until this last effort has fully played itself out.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:06 PM   #158
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This war has been lost. Just like every other occupation never worked long term, neither will this one.

The reality is that this war is over. It will end within the next 18 months one way or another. There is really no question about it anymore; the public will not sustain it and the political process (elections) in the US will ensure it. So the question isn't how long we wait, it's how to get out in an organized way.

And refocus on Afghanistan which is a total lost cause. The Canadians, who have the highest death toll in Afghanistan after the US are pulling out in February, 2009. NATO has not done a good job distributing the troops and Europeans don't want to be in southern Afghanistan, dying. This country should not have been abandoned, but it was and for all we know, it's now going to be as lost as Iraq.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:12 PM   #159
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Sorry to jump in on this conversation. I've been against this war from the very beginning, suspicious of the intentions behind it. Now we've gotten ourselves into this messy situation.

What I don't understand is why when people say "we need to pull our troops out of Iraq" others are assuming that we're just leaving it as that. there is definitely a way to stabilize the situation over there without the presence of american military forces.

granted, i've only seen one politician with a very solid plan for removing the troops and assisting (key word: ASSISTING) in the stabilization of that area. but that doesn't mean that this option is impossible.
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Old 07-10-2007, 01:45 PM   #160
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Originally posted by unico
Sorry to jump in on this conversation. I've been against this war from the very beginning, suspicious of the intentions behind it. Now we've gotten ourselves into this messy situation.

What I don't understand is why when people say "we need to pull our troops out of Iraq" others are assuming that we're just leaving it as that. there is definitely a way to stabilize the situation over there without the presence of american military forces.

granted, i've only seen one politician with a very solid plan for removing the troops and assisting (key word: ASSISTING) in the stabilization of that area. but that doesn't mean that this option is impossible.
and what would that idea be??? 2 of the countries neighboring iraq do not listen to our diplomacy efforts, and that is not just b/c of bush. they are against the west and its beliefs on freedoms.
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