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Old 07-11-2007, 04:05 PM   #221
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What was the punishment to those involved in that. They are all serving years in jail. They were not let off the hook.



yes, the military managed to scapegoat a few individuals, fully ignorning the fact that it was a direct result of Rumsfeld's policies. these were not lone wolves having fun one drunken night. we've seen the adoption of "coercive interrogation techniques" by the Republican party -- torture by any other name, things like waterboarding that were enthusastically employed by Stalin and Pol Pot.

don't kid yourself. they are doing this in your name. and once you start to torture, there's no turning back. the intelligent people get kicked aside and the sadists take over.


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No where did I say that there wasn't collateral damage. However, our purpose is completely different than that of a jihadist.
does that really make any difference to the 4 year old standing over her mother's dead body or her 14 year old brother who's now convinced that, yes, the Americans are declaring war on Islam, so it's time to go to that suicide bomber meeting down the road.

democracy cannot arrive at the barrel of a gun.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:05 PM   #222
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I get the notion that there is a movement that wants to bring the large swaths of the Islamic world and eventually (as in centuries) the entire world into line with Gods true message but it simply isn't a race issue.

Short of wiping out a whole religion you can't entirely stop radicalism but you can tackle the flashpoints that drive support for it, the backing of oil states and autocracies would fall under that.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:07 PM   #223
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should we? No. Should an international force, yes. Hamas the political movement, like the Ba'ath movement of Iraq, is legit, however the leadership of Hamas is not. Therefore, it cannot be trusted and a international force must be put in to stop both Israel from advancing and doing something stupid, and Hamas from firing its rockets at Israel. That is what is necessary. Then Abbas' must continue to build his forces and when he is strong enough re-take Gaza and setup a unified state of Palestine.


then you and i can wish this administration good luck with assembling an international force to do anything, after it totally destroyed whatever credibility it had with the Iraq war.

so we invade Gaza, and Iraq, and Afghanistan. who's next? Iran? Syria? where does it end? how many trops will it take? at what financial cost? are you ready to stand in the sand with a rifle? if not you, then who?
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:09 PM   #224
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then you and i can wish this administration good luck with assembling an international force to do anything, after it totally destroyed whatever credibility it had with the Iraq war.

so we invade Gaza, and Iraq, and Afghanistan. who's next? Iran? Syria? where does it end? how many trops will it take? at what financial cost? are you ready to stand in the sand with a rifle? if not you, then who?
egypt is more than happy to supply troops. i am sure jordan would as well.

where did i say we invade gaza? the international force would be on its borders, and when abbas' forces are strong enough would be supported by the international force.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:11 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


should we? No. Should an international force, yes. Hamas the political movement, like the Ba'ath movement of Iraq, is legit, however the leadership of Hamas is not. Therefore, it cannot be trusted and a international force must be put in to stop both Israel from advancing and doing something stupid, and Hamas from firing its rockets at Israel. That is what is necessary. Then Abbas' must continue to build his forces and when he is strong enough re-take Gaza and setup a unified state of Palestine.
Don't buy it, Hamas has a charter which cites the koranic justification for the killing of Jews and the enforcement of Sharia law across all of Palestine (including all of what is today Israel). It isn't a question of leadership, it is a listed terrorist organisation and it won't compromise it's big goals regardless of what hudna they put in place for concessions.

As far as backing the PLO against them, good luck, a little civil war doesn't have any concequences.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:12 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


egypt is more than happy to supply troops. i am sure jordan would as well.



because they willingly coughed up troops for the Iraq invasion? do you really think that Egyptians and Jordanians are going to occupy Palestinians? they're going to occupy what is already considered occupied territory? have you forgotten about a little country called Israel and how that would go down with the rest of the Arab world?


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where did i say we invade gaza? the international force would be on its borders, and when abbas' forces are strong enough would be supported by the international force.

i really don't know how to respond to this.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:13 PM   #227
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Don't buy it, Hamas has a charter which cites the koranic justification for the killing of Jews and the enforcement of Sharia law across all of Palestine (including all of what is today Israel). It isn't a question of leadership, it is a listed terrorist organisation and it won't compromise it's big goals regardless of what hudna they put in place for concessions.

As far as backing the PLO against them, good luck, a little civil war doesn't have any concequences.
well, israel is the main problem here. israel needs to be dealt with as well. they are in some ways the bigger problem than Palestine.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:17 PM   #228
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well, israel is the main problem here. israel needs to be dealt with as well. they are in some ways the bigger problem than Palestine.


so what do you suggest? what do you mean by "deal" with Israel?
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:18 PM   #229
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If a military intervention is the solution to the small problem of Gaza one may only imagine the solution to the large problem of Israel
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:20 PM   #230
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If a military intervention is the solution to the small problem of Gaza one may only imagine the solution to the large problem of Israel




perhaps we should see if Iran has any suggestions.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:25 PM   #231
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so what do you suggest? what do you mean by "deal" with Israel?
The US has the clout to tell Israel what to do. The US runs israel. We supply its military weapons, ammunition, etc. If they do not listen to us, they go dry. Israel is not a land of resources, other than oil. So, we need to tell them that they need to start negotiating with Abbas.

1. An immediate withdrawal from the West Bank. Or at least a staged withdrawal. If you look at a map of the West Bank, Israel is expanding in that territory, and it is getting out of hand. If I was living in Palestine, I would be chucking a rock as well.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:34 PM   #232
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Originally posted by struckpx


The US has the clout to tell Israel what to do. The US runs israel. We supply its military weapons, ammunition, etc. If they do not listen to us, they go dry. Israel is not a land of resources, other than oil. So, we need to tell them that they need to start negotiating with Abbas.

1. An immediate withdrawal from the West Bank. Or at least a staged withdrawal. If you look at a map of the West Bank, Israel is expanding in that territory, and it is getting out of hand. If I was living in Palestine, I would be chucking a rock as well.


finally! it's all so simple! *this* is the plan that's eluded the world and every single US president and Israeli PM since 1947!
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:34 PM   #233
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finally! it's all so simple! *this* is the plan we've been missing since 1947!
yes, it is that easy. now more than ever, the US has the power to do it because abbas is the leader.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:37 PM   #234
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yes, it is that easy. now more than ever, the US has the power to do it because abbas is the leader.


phew!
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:38 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx


The US has the clout to tell Israel what to do. The US runs israel. We supply its military weapons, ammunition, etc. If they do not listen to us, they go dry. Israel is not a land of resources, other than oil. So, we need to tell them that they need to start negotiating with Abbas.

1. An immediate withdrawal from the West Bank. Or at least a staged withdrawal. If you look at a map of the West Bank, Israel is expanding in that territory, and it is getting out of hand. If I was living in Palestine, I would be chucking a rock as well.
You should send Bush a letter with this suggestion.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:41 PM   #236
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You should send Bush a letter with this suggestion.


it demonstrates the historical insight, grappling of complexity, and attention to nuance our president is so justly famous for.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:41 PM   #237
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You should send Bush a letter with this suggestion.
i would go more in depth, but why, all i would is just get clout from the shits on this forum.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:43 PM   #238
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i would go more in depth, but why, all i would is just get clout from the shits on this forum.


maybe if you offered more depth, you'd get fewer people asking you for more depth.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:43 PM   #239
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i would go more in depth, but why, all i would is just get clout from the shits on this forum.
After everything you're already calling people names again? Nice.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:45 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
finally! it's all so simple! *this* is the plan that's eluded the world and every single US president and Israeli PM since 1947!
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You should send Bush a letter with this suggestion.
Scorn won't help the situation any.
Quote:
Originally posted by struckpx
i would go more in depth, but why, all i would is just get clout from the shits on this forum.
If that's all you take us for then there's really no point in saying anything.
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