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View Poll Results: What causes HATE/ANGER for our fellowmen?men?men?
ENVY/JEALOSY 11 45.83%
POVERTY 13 54.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 10-14-2002, 01:40 PM   #21
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The Old Testament indeed states that Jews are God's "chosen people," but Jesus came to Earth and wholly rejected that claim. St. Paul makes an equal condemnation of that claim, and his entire Church of Antioch (ideological and chronological predecessor to the entire Christian Church) emphasized on Gentiles--e.g., the excluded. I believe that the entire concept of "chosen people" is an archaic relic of polytheism, as I'm sure the Philistines were the "chosen people" of Baal. Since we don't believe in polytheism, the idea of "chosen people" is ridiculous. Aren't we all equal children of God?
Review Romans 9 through 11, God's plan for His people, the Jews, is intact. Scripture supports Godís selection of His people. Scripture does not support manís selection of Godís people. This is the root of the problem when man tires to decide who is Elect and who is not. From our side of the equation, we need to view all people as made in Godís image.

Are Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29 ridiculous passages?

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Read the Bible, for instance. In conquering Canaan in the book of Joshua, God supposedly commands Joshua to evoke "the Ban," which commanded the murder of every last man, woman, and child, along with all property of all sorts. Of course, then there are the evocations of justified rape in Deuteronomy:

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seeth among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and remain in thine house . . . And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her" (Deuteronomy 21:10-14).

But hey...we can tell that there is justice here. I mean, they were allowed to "humble her" and divorce her, but they can't sell her!
This is one of many examples where God gives a specific command to His people. Please do not confuse this as a license for any believer to eliminate a non-believing rival. Also, I am not in a position to dictate which commands of God are good and which are bad. I think it can be best stated ďGod doesnít do something because it is good, it is good because God does itĒ. I believe it would be foolish to think we are on the same level as God, or that He must live to our standards of right and wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Of course, let me allay any confusion: I am a devout Christian, but--maybe I was from another planet in another dimension--all these ideas of guilt, self-loathing, and general complexity was completely foreign to me until I was 18. Creationism and the ideas expoused by the Christian Coalition I believed to be long extinct, killed in the 19th century when man was able to reconcile between God and science. How wrong I found myself to be, and I have a hard time finding Jesus in all this mess. Of course, the response I get from some Christians is "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). And all I can say to that is that Jesus would never have had to come at all; we've always done a great job of killing ourselves and each other.

Hatred...anger...guilt...power...control...elitism...

Melon
As a devout Christian, I do not find God's message of salvation to be one of hatred, anger, guilt, power, control or elitism. These are all elements of our sin nature. All I can do is pray that you would find Jesus in all this mess.
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Old 10-14-2002, 02:50 PM   #22
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I am the chosen one.

I choose the choice that is not listed. RELIGION is the root of all evil, war, jealousy, envy, anger, hatred and all other ill feelings towards our fellow man.
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Old 10-14-2002, 03:36 PM   #23
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I also choose a cause that is not listed:

IGNORANCE
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Old 10-14-2002, 04:43 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Review Romans 9 through 11, God's plan for His people, the Jews, is intact. Scripture supports Godís selection of His people. Scripture does not support manís selection of Godís people. This is the root of the problem when man tires to decide who is Elect and who is not. From our side of the equation, we need to view all people as made in Godís image.

Are Ephesians 1:4 and Romans 8:29 ridiculous passages?
NB, doesn't the scripture you selected, especially Romans 9 support the point that Melon was/is making. That our churches have become elitist in thinking that they hold the truth in their hands, to the exclusion of others? IMHO it emphasizes that being a member of "Israel" is more than being biologically a child of Abraham. Specifically it refers to the Gentiles as being called not just the Jews.

When Christ stood against the Pharisees, in a sense he was attempting to take God out of the Temple and bring God to the people.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
This is one of many examples where God gives a specific command to His people. Please do not confuse this as a license for any believer to eliminate a non-believing rival. Also, I am not in a position to dictate which commands of God are good and which are bad. I think it can be best stated ďGod doesnít do something because it is good, it is good because God does itĒ. I believe it would be foolish to think we are on the same level as God, or that He must live to our standards of right and wrong.
I would go back to what Melon quoted from Deuteronomy. It was a reference to taking captive women and making them your wife without consent. Are you saying that this was a command of God and that it is good because it was the will of God? Many people throughout history have committed great atrocities because they claim to have been told by God to do something. In this same vein people who believe to know the will of God may have committed the terrorist bombings in Bali. In all probability they may even claim to be "chosen".


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
As a devout Christian, I do not find God's message of salvation to be one of hatred, anger, guilt, power, control or elitism. These are all elements of our sin nature. All I can do is pray that you would find Jesus in all this mess.
That is the point isn't it? God's message of salvation is lost in the elitist nature of man's sinful nature permeating religion. There is a difference between having a religion and hearing the message of God's salvation.

I would offer a different prayer......I pray that we can find God in all of this. It is the one common theme between the Judiasm, Christianity, and the Muslim religion. There is one God.

Peace to all.
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Old 10-14-2002, 05:20 PM   #25
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IGONORANCE, ARROGANCE, AND THE LACK OF EMPATHY.
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Old 10-14-2002, 05:24 PM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and comment.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
It is the one common theme between the Judiasm, Christianity, and the Muslim religion. There is one God.

Peace to all.

Sorry if there was some confusion in my post, as I can only speak as a Christian with an understanding of Judaism from the Old Testament.

I believe Melon was referring to the concept of the Elect as a tool to harm others. If I call myself one of the Elect, it is simply a reference to Godís grace. It has nothing to do with my superiority/inferiority to another person.

I highlighted your one statement for an important reason. The God of Judaism and Christianity and that of Islam are not the same. There is a shared history and common terms, but if you look at this from a theological perspective, there are too many core differences to have all three religions claiming the same God.

A lot of the issues raised in these posts point to the claims of man (or churches). But lets look at the claims of Jesus Christ himself. 1. Jesus states that He is God. 2. Jesus states that He is the only way to salvation. We can all be critical and suspicious of the claims of man (or churches) and argue for tolerance and open mindedness, but if we disagree with these two statements, we will have to take these matters up with Jesus.

Peace brothers and sisters.
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Old 10-14-2002, 05:53 PM   #27
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and commen

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I highlighted your one statement for an important reason. The God of Judaism and Christianity and that of Islam are not the same. There is a shared history and common terms, but if you look at this from a theological perspective, there are too many core differences to have all three religions claiming the same God.
WE can agree to disagree with this point. Throughout the Old and New Testament there is a theme that there is but one God. I would appreciate if someone with more of a background in the Muslim faith would speak to their thoughts on this theme, but if I recall in my limited education on the topic, it is also a theme that Mohammad proclaimed as well. Christ through his teachings prayed to the "Father".

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
A lot of the issues raised in these posts point to the claims of man (or churches). But lets look at the claims of Jesus Christ himself. 1. Jesus states that He is God. 2. Jesus states that He is the only way to salvation. We can all be critical and suspicious of the claims of man (or churches) and argue for tolerance and open mindedness, but if we disagree with these two statements, we will have to take these matters up with Jesus.

Peace brothers and sisters.
As a Christian, and a believer in Christ, I can understand your point of view here, and your belief in the two statements you attribute to Jesus.

Be careful however, becasue there are many stones that have not been included in the man-made churches that will be the cornerstones of the Kingdom of God.
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Old 10-14-2002, 06:26 PM   #28
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote and co

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
WE can agree to disagree with this point. Throught the Old and New Testament there is a theme that there is but one God. I would appreciate if someone with more of a background in the Muslim faith would speak to their thoughts on this theme, but if I recall in my limited education on the topic, it is also a theme that Mohammad proclaimed as well. Christ through his teachings prayed to the "Father".
I would also like to see someone with a background in the Muslim faith speak on this issue.

From my own experience, I met a number of Egyptian Muslims during a trip to Cairo, Port Said and Ismailia a few years back. All believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims share the same God. A study of the Bible and the Quaran, however, should yield a different response, especially regarding the diety of Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-14-2002, 06:42 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vote an

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I would also like to see someone with a background in the Muslim faith speak on this issue.

From my own experience, I met a number of Egyptian Muslims during a trip to Cairo, Port Said and Ismailia a few years back. All believed that Jews, Christians and Muslims share the same God. A study of the Bible and the Quaran, however, should yield a different response, especially regarding the diety of Jesus Christ.
I am in no way shape or form saying that the Muslim believes Christ to be God. I think you and I both know the answer to this.

I am saying the theme from the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as the Quaran would be consistent with the theme that there is ONE God. It is the common ground on which the three books can stand.
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Old 10-14-2002, 07:00 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez vot

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am saying the theme from the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as the Quaran would be consistent with the theme that there is ONE God. It is the common ground on which the three books can stand.
I agree completely that all three are monotheistic.
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Old 10-14-2002, 08:03 PM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..Plez

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I agree completely that all three are monotheistic.
and the next part to your thought is........?
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Old 10-14-2002, 08:35 PM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause of HATE/ANGER towards our fellowman..

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


and the next part to your thought is........?
That while all three are monotheistic, due to conflicting core doctrines (stated earlier), all three do not share the same God.
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Old 10-14-2002, 08:45 PM   #33
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There are a number of Jews and Muslims (even Christians) who view Roman Catholicism as a polytheistic faith.
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Old 10-14-2002, 10:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
There are a number of Jews and Muslims (even Christians) who view Roman Catholicism as a polytheistic faith.
I am glad someone else said it! I thought it...hehe

However, through the belief in the Trinity, it is not Polytheistic. This applies not to just Roman Catholicism, but to most Christian Denominations. The Trinity is not debateable, either you believe in it, or most denominations do not view you to be a Christian.
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Old 10-15-2002, 05:36 PM   #35
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How about a feeling of suppression, finding lack of respect for your own culture, a feeling of lack of independence. This is absolutely not the same as poverty or envy/jealousy.
The not being able to have a proper vote or power because you are poor. The rich in the world either directly or indirectly have a lot of power in telling people how to live, which is rather logical conclusion of capitalism. Now this can and often does cause hatred, because to have a proper vote, you have to be rich, to become rich, you most often have to join the ways of those that are already rich, which means taking over parts of their culture. This is a very general statement and is applicable to various times and places throughout history. Now you may call this envy. Perhaps it is a kind of envy, but I think far more important is the overwhelming influence that the rich have on the poor and their culture rather than the fact that they envy the richness of the rich.
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Old 10-16-2002, 11:31 AM   #36
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Niether-- I don't think that either one of those choices would be the root cause of hate, but I do think beliefs play a major role in this.
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Old 10-16-2002, 01:02 PM   #37
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Well, religion is a part of a culture, it also is a great tool in causing hatred, rather more than a real cause to hatred in my opinion.
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Old 10-16-2002, 11:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vorsprung
How about a feeling of suppression, finding lack of respect for your own culture, a feeling of lack of independence. This is absolutely not the same as poverty or envy/jealousy.
The not being able to have a proper vote or power because you are poor. The rich in the world either directly or indirectly have a lot of power in telling people how to live, which is rather logical conclusion of capitalism. Now this can and often does cause hatred, because to have a proper vote, you have to be rich, to become rich, you most often have to join the ways of those that are already rich, which means taking over parts of their culture. This is a very general statement and is applicable to various times and places throughout history. Now you may call this envy. Perhaps it is a kind of envy, but I think far more important is the overwhelming influence that the rich have on the poor and their culture rather than the fact that they envy the richness of the rich.

Vorsprung-

Very good post

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Old 10-17-2002, 03:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vorsprung
How about a feeling of suppression, finding lack of respect for your own culture, a feeling of lack of independence. This is absolutely not the same as poverty or envy/jealousy.
The not being able to have a proper vote or power because you are poor. The rich in the world either directly or indirectly have a lot of power in telling people how to live, which is rather logical conclusion of capitalism. Now this can and often does cause hatred, because to have a proper vote, you have to be rich, to become rich, you most often have to join the ways of those that are already rich, which means taking over parts of their culture. This is a very general statement and is applicable to various times and places throughout history. Now you may call this envy. Perhaps it is a kind of envy, but I think far more important is the overwhelming influence that the rich have on the poor and their culture rather than the fact that they envy the richness of the rich.
I don't see why this is such a good post. It seems like he has locked himself into a marxist-socialist mindset of the rich oppressing the worker class, but I don't see any evidence that it's a foregone conclusion that the rich necessarily have to oppress the poor. So, if start a business and hire people to work for me for a lower salary than my own, is that considered oppression? Also, I don't see how the "logical" conclusion of capitalism is that the rich will have ultimate control of the poor. It may seem logical for someone raised among socialists and communists, but dumb Americans (like myself) might need a little help with the actual arguement you're trying to make (if there is one).

"to become rich, you most often have to join the ways of those that are already rich, which means taking over parts of their culture. "

He also doesn't discuss why the rich oppressing the poor is a more important influence than the poor envying the rich. Simply stating it as your opinion doesn't constitute an arguement. I'd appreciate a more developed arguement.

Why does it not surprise me that this arguement is coming from the Netherlands? I'd fall out of my seat if I saw a right-wing arguement from the Netherlands. Sooooo....how's your collapsed government doing? Are you with the Christian Dems, the VVD or the LPF?
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Old 10-20-2002, 12:10 PM   #40
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Funny, calling the Netherlands a land of communists and socialists. Since our country has always been a country of trade since it hardly has any natural resources. Thatís what weíre known for. Also the worldís 2nd or 3rd largest company (Royal Dutch/Shell) is a mostly Dutch corporation. This all wouldnít really happen if we were living in a tiny communist country. True, The Netherlands just as the rest of Europe is more left wing than the USA. The policy of your democrats would be considered right-wing over here. Even I donít consider myself really left-wing over here, for American Iím left-wing yes, for Dutch not. So Iím sensing some kind of communistóphobia or maybe even xenophobia in your reply. Also, it seems like you feel that Iíve started a personal attack on America. Well I havenít. Iíve just stated some things which do apply to the USA, since it is the superpower of today, but not solely to them but also to (relative) superpowers of the past and also to Europe. I also did not state that this (general) superpower is doing something wrong. I havenít said whoís right and whoís wrong, so my post was never meant to bash the USA or anything like that, dontí be so paranoid and feel offended so soon. I have other reasons for not liking American policy, something this post wasnít about, it actually wasnít about a policy at all.
About the fall our government: well I havenít voted for either of those parties, but I think tís a good thing theyív fallen apart, since the LPF is a very unstabile party with their members being egocentric and much to eager for (personal) power.

But back to the original topic. To call envy the reason is very easy, because this simply implies they're the bad guys and we can't help it that they hate us. In fact then they are the cause for the hatred themselves, because they are stupid envious people. Stating that the huge influence of the (culture of the) rich on the (culture of the) poor is a main cause for hatred may to some imply that the rich are wrong or bad or deliberately opresssing the poor. They aren't, but it just happens to be this way (sometimes they are and then the rich and powerful are acting in a wrong way, but this doesn't necesarely have to be this way)
Why not just envy? Well, that is personal in a way yes, but I wouldn't hate anyone just because they are more powerful or rich. So be it, I don't need to be wealthy, though I want to be independent. But if they are more powerful and rich, well I don't think anyone would have a problem with that as long as this power doen't influence your way of life.
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