"The real reasons America is invading Iraq" & What are the real motives for the war?

[cloudimani]

Have you thought out the full ramifications of this statement?

Well if America start illegally invading countries with the sole prupose of overthrowing regimes that pose no threat to them its an extremely worrying precedent. I mean where does it stop? America is making decisions on the behalf of the people of a whole country that is not under their control. Who decides what regimes need changing? Who decides it is in fact lawful for the likes of America to barge into other countries and install a leader who is friendly to their point of view in place of one who is not

What if you turn the whole thing around? What if an outside power decides they dont like the setup in America and they'd like to shake things up a bit? Is that ok? No I didnt think so

 

[speedracer]

Well if America start illegally invading countries with the sole prupose of overthrowing regimes that pose no threat to them its an extremely worrying precedent. I mean where does it stop? America is making decisions on the behalf of the people of a whole country that is not under their control. Who decides what regimes need changing? Who decides it is in fact lawful for the likes of America to barge into other countries and install a leader who is friendly to their point of view in place of one who is not

What if you turn the whole thing around? What if an outside power decides they dont like the setup in America and they'd like to shake things up a bit? Is that ok? No I didnt think so

I don't really buy the slippery-slope argument in this case. That is, I really don't think other countries are going to change their behavior based on what we're doing right now. They're going to continue to make decisions based on their own interests and the forseeable consequences of their actions.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/887171.asp?0si=-

 

[U2girl]

Well how much of Saudi Arabia is the Holy soil? Can't the US troops be moved from that exact spot?

The US troops are there to ensure the "right" regime is in place, also because of US economic interests. Even if you had democratic elections (how likely is that in Islam world?), it can still happen that
a) fundamentalists win or
b) it gets overthrown (didn't Homeini overthrow a democratic leader in Iran?)

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I don't really buy the slippery-slope argument in this case. That is, I really don't think other countries are going to change their behavior based on what we're doing right now. They're going to continue to make decisions based on their own interests and the forseeable consequences of their actions.

But if one of the forseable consequences of their actions is invasion by the US then don't you think that can affect their decision making? Don't you think that if leaders have seen what devastation the war on Iraq is causing, they'll be less likely to engage in actions which could lead to the US doing the same to them?

 

[nbcrusader]

Well how much of Saudi Arabia is the Holy soil? Can't the US troops be moved from that exact spot?

Depends on which Muslim you ask. Some think it is innapropriate for "infidels" to be in the region, let alone Saudi Arabia.

 

[ALEXRUS]

...Israelis don't get blown up by homicide bombers and making sure Islamist psychopaths don't fly planes into our office buildings.

Those people were not psychopaths. Psychopaths would have never been able to plan and implement what those people did. But it is an interesting question: even if they were religious fanatics, why their fanatism turned against the US? Those people were ready to sacrifice their lifes to do maximum damage to the US. Why?
And a question I would like to address to all those pro-war people: you say it is about liberating Iraq, bringing democracy there etc, so are YOU ready to go there and sacrifice your lives for the sake of Iraqi people?

 

[ALEXRUS]

To protect the regimes (Saudi and Kuwait) from being over thrown by there own people.

Exactly

 

[ALEXRUS]

Who decides what regimes need changing? Who decides it is in fact lawful for the likes of America to barge into other countries

America decides.
We run into the arms of America...

 

[anitram]

Possibly a good thing as well, because if it weren't so, there's a good chance that there'd be two even more fundamentalist Islamist regimes in place.

Many Middle East analysts have said that if regimes in places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, etc. were overthrown, the people would elect/install fundamentalist Islamic governments.

My question to you is that if the US wants a democracy in the middle east, and the result of democratic elections are such that a fundamentalist government is chosen, then what? Do the people not have a right to elect whomever they want? Or is it only a democracy insofar as the new government must toe the Washington party line?

I am not sure we can have it both ways. Either the people of the Arab world get to choose their representatives democratically (no matter how much you disagree with what these representatives stand for) or they do not. And if the latter is true, then there is no democracy we are bringing to them at all. These are not questions that will go away. Bush needs to ask himself what democracy in that region really means.

 

[Basstrap]

interesting viewpoint my political science professor brought up (former american)

democracies are easier to trade with, especially when you set up the leader and groom him/her

 

[sharky]

hmm interesting Basstrap.

As for earlier, 46% of Americans think that most of the hijackers were Iraqi. Only 10% know where Afghanistan is on a map of the world. If you want, I can find the stories that state this. This is real.

I'm saying Americans are just out and out dumb. But how many Americans read a newspaper? Watch nightly news? How many of them have make decisions about this war based on actual FACTS and educated themselves?

a little over 50% of Americans who can vote actually voted in the 2000 presidential election. What does that tell you about the other 50%? They're protesting the choices or they don't care?

Most Americans are not like us. They're more concerned about the fact that Joe Millionaire and Zora aren't dating anymore. 47 million Americans watched Joe Millionaire. More Americans watched the Oscars than the war coverage on other networks combined. what does that tell you about the way Americans are making their decisions about this war?

 

[speedracer]

And a question I would like to address to all those pro-war people: you say it is about liberating Iraq, bringing democracy there etc, so are YOU ready to go there and sacrifice your lives for the sake of Iraqi people?

I thought this question was ruled out of bounds by the moderators. It is roughly equivalent to my asking you if you're willing to be a human shield for Iraq.

But I'll answer anyway. I turned in my draft card. I'm ready to go if called up.

 

[BVS]

As for earlier, 46% of Americans think that most of the hijackers were Iraqi. Only 10% know where Afghanistan is on a map of the world. If you want, I can find the stories that state this. This is real.
I'm saying Americans are just out and out dumb. But how many Americans read a newspaper? Watch nightly news? How many of them have make decisions about this war based on actual FACTS and educated themselves?

I really hope that you meant to put a "not" in that sentence and overlooked that. Americans are not dumb. But unfortunately there's a large percentage that are very much brain washed right now. Which may be even more dangerous.

 

[speedracer]

Many Middle East analysts have said that if regimes in places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, etc. were overthrown, the people would elect/install fundamentalist Islamic governments.

My question to you is that if the US wants a democracy in the middle east, and the result of democratic elections are such that a fundamentalist government is chosen, then what? Do the people not have a right to elect whomever they want? Or is it only a democracy insofar as the new government must toe the Washington party line?

I am not sure we can have it both ways. Either the people of the Arab world get to choose their representatives democratically (no matter how much you disagree with what these representatives stand for) or they do not. And if the latter is true, then there is no democracy we are bringing to them at all. These are not questions that will go away. Bush needs to ask himself what democracy in that region really means.

I really doubt that a fundamentalist Islamist regime would ever be elected democratically. Such a regime could certainly take over by force. Can you persuade me otherwise?

 

[Dreadsox]

And a question I would like to address to all those pro-war people: you say it is about liberating Iraq, bringing democracy there etc, so are YOU ready to go there and sacrifice your lives for the sake of Iraqi people?

1st Many people who post here have or are prior service.
2nd This question is easily turned on you. If you are so passionate about the wrong we are doing why aren't you there acting as a human shield?
3rd For all you know, some of us have been in touch with the military and are one signature away from going. So yes, some of us are ready to sacrafice our lives for our country.

4th Shoot....my freaking cammi pants no longer fit....even with the expanders. 45 extra pounds....dang.

 

[speedracer]

But if one of the forseable consequences of their actions is invasion by the US then don't you think that can affect their decision making? Don't you think that if leaders have seen what devastation the war on Iraq is causing, they'll be less likely to engage in actions which could lead to the US doing the same to them?

I think cloudimani was probably thinking about something like China suddenly invading Taiwan or North Korea suddenly invading South Korea. If China or North Korea did so, I don't think that "the US is doing it, so why can't we" would enter into their thinking much, if at all. They'll do it if they think they're getting something out of it that outweighs the risks.

 

[womanfish]

hmm interesting Basstrap.

As for earlier, 46% of Americans think that most of the hijackers were Iraqi. Only 10% know where Afghanistan is on a map of the world. If you want, I can find the stories that state this. This is real.

I'm saying Americans are just out and out dumb. But how many Americans read a newspaper? Watch nightly news? How many of them have make decisions about this war based on actual FACTS and educated themselves?

a little over 50% of Americans who can vote actually voted in the 2000 presidential election. What does that tell you about the other 50%? They're protesting the choices or they don't care?

Most Americans are not like us. They're more concerned about the fact that Joe Millionaire and Zora aren't dating anymore. 47 million Americans watched Joe Millionaire. More Americans watched the Oscars than the war coverage on other networks combined. what does that tell you about the way Americans are making their decisions about this war?

Well this post is all over the map, but it irritates me so I will try and respond the best I can.

First of all, your assumption is that only American's don't educate themselves or get the facts. Believe me, it is in every country in the world.

And the lack of education on the subject goes both ways. I have done A LOT of personal research, reading, reading through the UN resolutions, reading and listening to debates of both points of view before deciding how I felt on this issue.
I was just watching a show a few days ago where they were interviewing protestors in differenct cities in America.

the results:
Most could not name the final UN resolution that did not make it through the Security Council.

They only found one person that knew how many resolutions Saddam had breached.

They said 20% didn't know the name of the Iraqi president

50% of the people they asked didn't know who Donald Rumsfield was.

Asked why they were against the war, most answers were "because the world disagrees", because peace is the answer", "because war kills", "because Bush wants more oil", etc... hardly any answered with any actual factual reasons.

So I definitely agree, American's are dumb when it comes to educating themselves on these sort of issues. So is the majority of the rest of the world. I would expect similar dumb responses from pro-war demonstrators (like -because you have to back the president).

And I don't really know what you mean by all the election stuff and Joe Millionaire. But I must say - I really have done a lot of homework on this issue and am glad I have, I've learned a lot from both sides of the issue - I voted (for Gore), I watched Joe Millionaire (and I liked Zora).

 

[sharky]

I really hope that you meant to put a "not" in that sentence and overlooked that. Americans are not dumb. But unfortunately there's a large percentage that are very much brain washed right now. Which may be even more dangerous.

Oh gawd! I did forget the not. which makes it mean something completely different now -- and what I meant to say. thanks for that.

 

[sharky]

And I don't really know what you mean by all the election stuff and Joe Millionaire. But I must say - I really have done a lot of homework on this issue and am glad I have, I've learned a lot from both sides of the issue - I voted (for Gore), I watched Joe Millionaire (and I liked Zora).

I liked Zora too!

what I was trying to say is that rather than educate themselves on the issues, Americans would rather not. Take Canada. Yes they do have a day off for work and yes they do come to your house to make sure you're registered to vote but still. 90some% of their citizens vote in their major parliamentary election. For the most part, Americans just don't care. We're sending hundreds of thousands of troops to Iraq and a majority of Americans don't know where Iraq is.

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.

 

[ALEXRUS]

2nd This question is easily turned on you. If you are so passionate about the wrong we are doing why aren't you there acting as a human shield?

I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...

 

[ALEXRUS]

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.

Great!!!

 

[Dreadsox]

I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...

Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?

For war protesters who are protesting lawfully, I applaud them. It is one of the things I love about my country.

I have never wished someone who excersized their rights DEAD.

 

[womanfish]

I liked Zora too!

what I was trying to say is that rather than educate themselves on the issues, Americans would rather not. Take Canada. Yes they do have a day off for work and yes they do come to your house to make sure you're registered to vote but still. 90some% of their citizens vote in their major parliamentary election. For the most part, Americans just don't care. We're sending hundreds of thousands of troops to Iraq and a majority of Americans don't know where Iraq is.

I guess I'm just frustrated. I don't care if you support the war or are against it or indifferent if you want to be, but make sure you make that decision on the knowledge you collect and not because your hippie friends are going to an anti-war rally or some country music star tells you that Saddam needs a boot in his ass.

Now you're talkin' Sharky! I totally agree with what you say here. I just frustrated that people think that NO Americans are educated on the subject. Believe me, I know most don't take the time.

And I have been trying to get this message out around here for a long time. I think so many of the protestors are out there and they have no clue what it's about or what's going on. I also think there are large parts of the pro-war movement who are just as clueless. I was flipping by Country Music Television last night and they had Toby Keith Live last night (I hate country by the way) but all of the people standing and cheering at every pro military word he threw out, talking about kicking other countries asses, etc... just made me sick, just like watching peace protests break out into violence.

 

[nbcrusader]

I am against this war. If everybody who's against this war goes there as a human shield and gets killed by the pro-war guys, there will be no more protests, no controversy... That's what you want. Nooooooooo...

So, "pro-war" operatives recruit human shileds so they can be killed and eliminate dissent?

 

[ALEXRUS]

Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth?

For war protesters who are protesting lawfully, I applaud them. It is one of the things I love about my country.

I have never wished someone who excersized their rights DEAD.

I love this post

 

[ALEXRUS]

So, "pro-war" operatives recruit human shileds so they can be killed and eliminate dissent?

No, I just mean that some of us should stay here...so that you remember we are someone. No more, no less.

 

[Lilly]

ALEXRUS - please respect what DreadSox (or any other poster for that matter) is posting, do not force words into their mouths, or insinuate that what they're saying is something they really aren't.


Please respect your fellow posters.

Thanks!

 

[ALEXRUS]

I will be the only one to answer my own question Moderators, merge it with brettig thread if you want to...

Thinking out loud...
I can only guess what is behind the curtains. Many reasons for this war have been cited.

Some of the arguments USUALLY mentioned by anti-Bush, anti-war people.
One is that it's all about oil. Of course, US needs cheap energy supply to give a boost to its stagnating economy. Though US companies will not be able to refurbish Iraqi oil wells and begin production of oil rapidly... but it will be enough to stabilize world oil prices at the level acceptable for the US economy. Can it be the only reason for starting this war? Only one of them...
Another is that some people in US administration have personal interests in this war. No doubt Cheney's Halliburton will make lots of money in the post-war reconstruction of Iraq but one can hardly imagine in earnest Cheney dictating to "ignorant" Bush: 'It's time to bomb Saddam'. Personal interests are there but they are not enough...
Another reason (often cited in my country, partially has to do with the 1st one) is that US now is a 'loose cannon' which has lost its only counterweight in the Cold War. With no one to oppose it seeks to establish its dominance in the world. First, it will be Middle East and control over oil reserves there. Everyone who opposes it, will share the fate of Iraq...etc. Many ppl call it "America's geostrategic goal". I will not comment on that.

Some of the arguments USUALLY mentioned by the war supporters.
1. It's about disarmament. It's highly probable that Iraq has WMD, at least bio- and chemical weapons. It's impossible to make it disarm through UN inspections. 12 years of Saddam playing tricks with the world community etc.
2. Iraq is a threat (if not to US) to its immediate neighbours. Saddam attacked Israel, Kuwait and Iran.
3. It's about regime change. Saddam's the worst tyrant living on Earth, killed thousands of his own people, gassed Kurds. That's intolerable. We remove Saddam, help Iraqi people choose a democratic government, then democracy will start spreading in the region cos ppl there will understand it's much better...
Actually all three mentioned reasons are interrelated. It's all about Saddam.

In my modest opinion ALL the abovementioned reasons together could not be enough to make the US start this war.

There is another, principal one that I omitted intentionally. Yes, whatever u call it: '9/11 aftershock', 'US security concern'...
But it needs a special post.

 

[ALEXRUS]

Here it goes...
It's a hard question I (Russian outsider) am trying to answer.
Nevertheless, my deep conviction now (I may change it someday)is that the current war on Iraq would have never started if 9/11 had not happened...
It was a tragedy in itself. For the 1st time since Pearl Harbour America was attacked on its own territory. For the 1st time in history thousands of innocent civilians were killed in America...
9/11 demonstrated America was vulnerable. Despite CIA, FBI, Pentagon... And I dare to say America is vulnerable and wil remain vulnerable in the face of a terrorist attack despite Homeland Security, incredibly tough security measures in airports, tough immigration policy...
And America realises that. That's why America decided to identify POTENTIAL threats to its security and to eliminate them. It is a right step in principle but here we encounter a problem.
America is capable of breaking the backbone of 1, 2, 3...10 political regimes on the planet. But it is NOT able to implant democracy principles in the heads of people living there. Principles that America HAS to violate itself in its crusade in the name of humanism.
Unfortunately, America started acting superficially. Instead of addressing root causes of anti-Americanism (which sometimes may have extreme, violent forms) it opted for easy, "soft" targets, I dare to say. It's easier to overthrow a dictator who is not hiding, who is known to be a monster hated by everybody. It's much easier than to start a meticulous, painstaking work with a view to reducing if not eliminating anti-Americanism. Poverty, lack of drinking water, diseases - America is to be blamed for that. That is what millions of people in the 3rd world think. Unilateralist actions by the US will multiply the figure.
There's only way for the US to feel more secure in this world. To become a REAL flagship of democracy and justice for everyone not for the selected ones. To become a country without double standards that sticks to democratic principles however hard or...impossible it may seem even in its relations with the others. To become a country which hears (better if takes into account) opinions of the others not in words but in deeds. To become a country that "actively cooperates" with multilateral organizations. A country that prefers diplomacy to force. That prefers bad peace to a "good" war.


It is only my opinion.

 

[Scarletwine]

I think so many of the protestors are out there and they have no clue what it's about or what's going on. I also think there are large parts of the pro-war movement who are just as clueless. I was flipping by Country Music Television last night and they had Toby Keith Live last night (I hate country by the way) but all of the people standing and cheering at every pro military word he threw out, talking about kicking other countries asses, etc... just made me sick, just like watching peace protests break out into violence.

I agree with you here a little. IMO more people on the anti-war side are educated about the issues. At least in speaking to people at the protest. OF course there are lots of students wanting to join an anti-establishment thing too.

I think on the pro-war side is much more blind "I'm with the gov't because it takes work to explore other ideas. I live in a rural area and the mindset is flag waving no matter what. Very little dissention at all.

In trying to start a stimulating conversation with my neighbors, ect. they have no clue the bad things my gov't has done or not done. As long as they can live their day to day lives all is well.
It is like the partyline, whichever party, is always right. It rather disgusts me truly.