The Real McCain

[Strongbow]

again, experience can give you people like Cheney and Rumsfeld.

it's about leadership, judgment, and temperance.

Leadership is at the core of what being a military officer is about. McCain was a military officer for 23 years and had to deal with situations on daily basis that required great leadership, judgment and temperance.

 

[Irvine511]

Leadership is at the core of what being a military officer is about. McCain was a military officer for 23 years and had to deal with situations on daily basis that required great leadership, judgment and temperance.

and if the military were the same thing as politics, you might have a point.

one consistent thing about McCain that has dogged him his entire career is his temperament, as this is one of the many things that Bush used against him to defeat him in 2000.

it's funny for you to pretend it isn't there, when it was used against him by the current president.

 

[diamond]

The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

Wait and see.

As I was correct in 04 so shall be in 09, causing only db9 to shine.

<>

 

[joyfulgirl]

The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

<>

It's possible. The American ppl have had very bad judgment in the past, too.

 

[Irvine511]

The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

you may well be correct. there are far worse men out there than John McCain (whereas there were few worse men than Bush & Co.)

but we shall see.

 

[diamond]

u guys missed my whole db9ryhming jingle.

 

[Strongbow]

and if the military were the same thing as politics, you might have a point.

one consistent thing about McCain that has dogged him his entire career is his temperament, as this is one of the many things that Bush used against him to defeat him in 2000.

it's funny for you to pretend it isn't there, when it was used against him by the current president.

it's funny that you gloss over most of McCain's life in favor of a few cherry picked allegations about his temperament and that you think Bush was right to pursue such an issue in his compaign against McCain back in 2000. Your hero Bill Clinton has had plenty of his own testy moments. But he never had to land an aircraft on a bobbing aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean in total darkness. I think it would be better to independently look at McCain's entire life in order to assess his temperament instead of just following the latest media flap up about him.

 

[Irvine511]

it's funny that you gloss over most of McCain's life in favor of a few cherry picked allegations about his temperament and that you think Bush was right to pursue such an issue in his compaign against McCain back in 2000.

slow down, kiddo. i didn't say Bush was "right" to make McCain out to be a raving lunatic with PTSD and psychotic tendencies. Bush did that all on his own, and it worked. i'm sorry it worked, as i thought what they did to him in 2000 was almost as disgusting as the Swift Boat ads, but it was done, and done effectively. as you continuously point out, the American people voted for George W. Bush. thus, they must be right. again, if we are to follow your own logic.

Your hero Bill Clinton has had plenty of his own testy moments. But he never had to land an aircraft on a bobbing aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean in total darkness. I think it would be better to independently look at McCain's entire life in order to assess his temperament instead of just following the latest media flap up about him.

easy there, tiger! where i have i referred to Bill Clinton as my "hero"? or do you need to make shit up in order to try to make a point? lots of people have landed aircraft on carriers in total darkness. that does not make them good choices to be president. i know people who work for McCain, as well as lots of people who worked for Kyle, and i have heard plenty of stories about McCain and his famous temper. there is much to McCain's life that i admire. i do question his temperance, and especially his judgment about the appropriateness of war. it's good that he's gone to great lengths to distance himself from Bush, i respect that. but this does not mean i find him a better choice than Obama or Hillary.

the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.

 

[deep]

the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.

has landed

and had to land

are quite different

 

[Irvine511]

has landed

and had to land

are quite different

but the irony abounds.

why didn't we just elect Martin Sheen?

 

[Strongbow]

slow down, kiddo. i didn't say Bush was "right" to make McCain out to be a raving lunatic with PTSD and psychotic tendencies. Bush did that all on his own, and it worked. i'm sorry it worked, as i thought what they did to him in 2000 was almost as disgusting as the Swift Boat ads, but it was done, and done effectively. as you continuously point out, the American people voted for George W. Bush. thus, they must be right. again, if we are to follow your own logic.

Well, in Bush against McCain, a portion of the Republican party and some independents and Democrats got to vote in that contest, far away from being representive of the general public that votes in a election.

easy there, tiger! where i have i referred to Bill Clinton as my "hero"? or do you need to make shit up in order to try to make a point?

I think your the one that needs to cool down.

lots of people have landed aircraft on carriers in total darkness. that does not make them good choices to be president.

The vast majority of people have not and people who lose their patience quickly normally would not make it as a fighter pilot. John McCain proved himself as a great fighter pilot through out his entire career and despite his injuries from captivity was able to become physically fit again, have his flight status reinstated, and go on to lead the largest squadron in the Navy!

i know people who work for McCain, as well as lots of people who worked for Kyle, and i have heard plenty of stories about McCain and his famous temper.

Yeah, and just about anyone who is in a position of authority in some way has had someone else say the same about them at one time or another. Should we discuss all the stories about Bill Clinton?

i do question his temperance, and especially his judgment about the appropriateness of war.

Yeah, well unlike Obama or Hillary who are still learning about national security and foreign policy, McCain's judgement is impacted by his 50 years of actual experience on the issues.

What was Obama's position on the 1991 Gulf War? Did he side with the majority of his party that voted AGAINST removing Saddam's military from Kuwait with military force, or did he side with Bush Sr. and the Republicans? Given Obama's voting record in the senate, I find it unlikely that he would have voted with the Republicans in 1991.

the aircraft carrier thing is funny, too, since Bush has landed on an aircraft carrier.

There are a lot of risk in landing an aircraft in the middle of the night on a carrier in rough seas. Nothing funny or easy about it at all. Navy and Marine pilots take a lot of risk on a daily basis in peace time that the general public does not know about.

 

[Diemen]

There are a lot of risk in landing an aircraft in the middle of the night on a carrier in rough seas. Nothing funny or easy about it at all. Navy and Marine pilots take a lot of risk on a daily basis in peace time that the general public does not know about.

The fact that McCain has the patience to land a plane on a carrier in no way reflects his temperament when interacting with other people. It was one specific skill, practiced over and over and over again that was required to be a good pilot. His character didn't land the plane.

And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation. There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.

 

[joyfulgirl]

There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.

Well said.

 

[Irvine511]

And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation.

you realize, of course, that this is Strongbow's argument.

 

[Strongbow]

The fact that McCain has the patience to land a plane on a carrier in no way reflects his temperament when interacting with other people. It was one specific skill, practiced over and over and over again that was required to be a good pilot. His character didn't land the plane.

And the ability to land a plane on a carrier has almost nothing to do with your capability to lead a nation. There are lots of 'unsung heroes' in daily life who take on arduous, life-threatening tasks and do it with the utmost competence and professionalism, day in day out, but I would venture to say that it doesn't automatically qualify them as better able to lead a nation, nor does it guarantee that their character will be strong. Likewise, landing a plane on a carrier doesn't automatically vault you into some stratosphere of great character.

Iceman was kind of a jerk, after all.

McCain was not just a pilot who had some technical skill, he was a military officer. He interacted with other people in life or death situations that required far more temperament and good character traits than most people need to have in their daily lives. Being a military officer is not like being a robot. Leadership and good character are the most vital traits for the job.

Sorry, but your not going to beat McCain in this area and I know that Obama is not even going to try.

 

[Diemen]

Sorry, but your not going to beat McCain in this area and I know that Obama is not even going to try.

Well, since you say so it must be true.

 

[maycocksean]

But he never had to land an aircraft on a bobbing aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean in total darkness.

This has NOTHING to do with being an effective president!

The subtext to this argument is really "Well, McCain's a REAL man, he's no weakling" which is just shallow, shallow thinking.

And it's not as if all military men have automatically turned out to be great presidents. Granted Zachary Taylor and William Henry Harrison died too soon for us to really say. But Ulysses S. Grant was a horrible president. Eisenhower wasn't particularly bad I suppose but he's usually not mentioned among our country's greatest presidents.

I guess you could base your argument on George Washington. Anyone else?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I bet Strom Thurmond kicked his ass


Huffington Post April 8th

Appearing on Fox News this past Sunday, Sen. John McCain attempted to turn his infamously combustible temper from an electoral liability into political strength.

"If I lose my capacity for anger, then I shouldn't be president of the United States," the Senator explained to host Chris Wallace. "When I see the waste and corruption in Washington, I get angry."

But how much of McCain's legendary anger streak does the public actually know? Judging from snippets of Cliff Schecter's new book "The Real McCain" - an advanced copy of which was obtained by the Huffington Post - the answer may be surprisingly little.

Take for instance the verbal-turned-physical attack McCain put on his fellow Arizona Republican, Rick Renzi, which Schecter uncovered through his research:

Perhaps the most remarkable story of McCain's temper involved Arizona Congressman Rick Renzi. Two former reporters covering McCain, one who witnessed the following events and one who confirmed the facts provided by the first, relayed it to me as follows: In 2006, the Arizona Republican congressional delegation had a strategy meeting. McCain repeatedly addressed two new members, congressmen Trent Franks and Rick Renzi, as 'boy.' Finally, Renzi, a former college linebacker, rose from his chair and said to McCain, "You call me that one more time and I'll kick your old ass." McCain lunged at Renzi, punches were thrown, and the two had to be physically separated. After they went to their separate offices, McCain called Renzi and demanded an apology. Renzi refused. Apparently this posture made McCain admire him, as they became fast friends.

The anecdote comes with the caveat that the sources -- in this instance, two reporters -- have insisted on anonymity and that no one reported on this story at the time when it occurred. Matt Yglesias touched on this issue in a blog post today.

That said, the episode fits into McCain's history of similarly explosive behavior. As Washingtonian magazine documented (and Schecter notes in the book), McCain once "scuffled" with the Senate's then oldest member, Strom Thurmond, during a Senate Armed Service Committee hearing in January 1995. Three years later, the Associated Press article reported that McCain dropped F-Bombs on at least three fellow Republicans.

"I'm calling you a f------ jerk!" he once retorted to Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley.

And in a opinion piece last year on Salon.com, Sidney Blumenthal, now an adviser to Sen. Hillary Clinton, wrote that McCain once told Sen. Ted Kennedy to "shut up" on the Senate Floor, referred to a fellow Republican as a "shit head" and offered a downright vicious and doubly-offensive joke in 1998 Republican fundraiser about then first daughter Chelsea Clinton.

"Do you know why Chelsea Clinton is so ugly?" he asked. "Because Janet Reno is her father."

 

[achtung_girl]

The American ppl will take John McCain's questionable tempremant over Hillary's ethics and Obama's inexperience.

Ok, I'm in europe here, and the first I heard about McCain and that he's a candidate was when this bomb iran thing came up and I immediately thought what an awful person...but I was at the opinion that he'll have long odds anyway for some reason...I dunno.

 

[diamond]

Ok, I'm in europe here, and the first I heard about McCain and that he's a candidate was when this bomb iran thing came up and I immediately thought what an awful person...but I was at the opinion that he'll have long odds anyway for some reason...I dunno.

of course you did, and i'm not surprised.

the left only sends you bad stuff over to you guys while ignoring mccain's good stuff which far outweigh a few silly moment(s) after a lifetime of honorable public service.

dbs

 

[Irvine511]

McCain was not just a pilot who had some technical skill, he was a military officer. He interacted with other people in life or death situations that required far more temperament and good character traits than most people need to have in their daily lives. Being a military officer is not like being a robot. Leadership and good character are the most vital traits for the job.

and yet, it doesn't automatically qualify you to be president. the military operates by a very different set of rules than the rest of society, and politics operates by a very different set of rules than society.

fortunately, your boy McCain has been in washington enough and is sold out to more than enough special interest groups and isn't even close to being this "Maverick" of the media's imagination. he's as much a politician as anyone else, and has no more or less integrity than anyone else who's risen to the same position he has.

it comes down to judgment, political judgment, and that isn't demonstrated when one lands on an aircraft carrier. my uncle used to ride helicopters behind enemy lines to rescue shattered platoons in Vietnam.

and ain't no way i'd ever want him to be president. we all adored him, but i've never seen anyone fly off the handle quite like he did.

 

[2861U2]

but I was at the opinion that he'll have long odds anyway for some reason...I dunno.

and most polls show that not being the case.

 

[Strongbow]

This has NOTHING to do with being an effective president!

The subtext to this argument is really "Well, McCain's a REAL man, he's no weakling" which is just shallow, shallow thinking.

And it's not as if all military men have automatically turned out to be great presidents. Granted Zachary Taylor and William Henry Harrison died too soon for us to really say. But Ulysses S. Grant was a horrible president. Eisenhower wasn't particularly bad I suppose but he's usually not mentioned among our country's greatest presidents.

I guess you could base your argument on George Washington. Anyone else?

Leadership has everything to do with being a great president and leadership is at the center of what being a military officer is about.

Other Presidents who served in the military? Ever heard of Harry S. Truman, or John F Kennedy?

 

[Strongbow]

and yet, it doesn't automatically qualify you to be president. the military operates by a very different set of rules than the rest of society, and politics operates by a very different set of rules than society.

fortunately, your boy McCain has been in washington enough and is sold out to more than enough special interest groups and isn't even close to being this "Maverick" of the media's imagination. he's as much a politician as anyone else, and has no more or less integrity than anyone else who's risen to the same position he has.

it comes down to judgment, political judgment, and that isn't demonstrated when one lands on an aircraft carrier. my uncle used to ride helicopters behind enemy lines to rescue shattered platoons in Vietnam.

and ain't no way i'd ever want him to be president. we all adored him, but i've never seen anyone fly off the handle quite like he did.

Nothing automatically qualifies a person to be President. But there are few jobs in the world where leadership, judgement and a persons overall character are as important in being a military officer. The rules may be different than politics, but the importance of good leadership is the same.

John McCain has proved himself in both worlds. Obama may talk about working with independents and Republicans, but only McCain actually has a solid record of real bipartisanship. Obama by contrast has one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. McCain's voting record is closer to the center than Obama's and instead of talking about bipartisanship, McCain has actually engaged in it.

 

[BVS]

Obama by contrast has one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate.

This just proves to me that you memorize talking points and you really don't analyze what you are saying.

Once can't attack Obama for little experience and having the most liberal voting record in the Senate at the same time.

That would be like comparing an 18 year old's voting record to an 85 year old's voting record. One will have one year of voting ability the other sevearl decades. So if the 18 year old voted in a federal and a state election that year and both were conservative, and the 85 year old voted for both througout his life, you still really don't know who's more conservative. One will have a 100% record the other may have an 86% record...

It's just another flawed talking point.

 

[Strongbow]

This just proves to me that you memorize talking points and you really don't analyze what you are saying.

Once can't attack Obama for little experience and having the most liberal voting record in the Senate at the same time.

That would be like comparing an 18 year old's voting record to an 85 year old's voting record. One will have one year of voting ability the other sevearl decades. So if the 18 year old voted in a federal and a state election that year and both were conservative, and the 85 year old voted for both througout his life, you still really don't know who's more conservative. One will have a 100% record the other may have an 86% record...

It's just another flawed talking point.

Obama has little experience relative to McCain. He does have voting record from his 3 years in the Senate on national issues, and it is considered to be one of the most liberal in the Senate.

 

[Iskra]

If being in the militaryqualifies you to be a great persident, then why did you morons vote for a draft dodger twice and "swift-boat" a veteran?
Also, why does Clinton's dirty laundry survive for years in the press and public opinion but no one wants to know about McCains or Bush's?
They called Clinton the "Teflon President" but Bush gets away with being an ex-drunk coke head and McCain can be a vulgar man who leaves his wife for a prettier, wealthier one.

 

[anitram]

I don't really understand the American obsession with the military or military men somehow being glorified a presidents. It's really not found elsewhere in the Western world and the societies function well and have good leadership as well. I'd actually probably be predisposed to NOT voting for a military person only because I don't attach great political importance to it and I think there are some things about military structure that may be antithetical to democratic governing anyway.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't really understand the American obsession with the military or military men somehow being glorified a presidents. It's really not found elsewhere in the Western world and the societies function well and have good leadership as well. I'd actually probably be predisposed to NOT voting for a military person only because I don't attach great political importance to it and I think there are some things about military structure that may be antithetical to democratic governing anyway.

it's clear from these comments that you hate not just freedom, but the men who brought it to you.

 

[U2isthebest]

^I feel exactly the same way as anitram, and since I'm actually a U.S. citizen, I guess I deserve to be dropped in the middle of the Iranian desert because I clearly hate our country.



Paranoia