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Old 07-10-2008, 10:30 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
What would you say after being caught murdering a police officer and the president? Why did oswald attempt to fire his weapon upon his arrest in the theater? Do you know many people who attempt to kill police officers when they are innocent? Please read my comments above.



The funny thing about quotes, is when they are taken out of context it is difficult to interpret based on the quote alone. I can tell you that Oswald was not a non-qual on his initial rifle qualification in the Marines. I can tell you that on a requalification before he left the Marines he had to qualify twice. Having not been there, I do not know the conditions of the requalification. I had a weapon malfunction during a qualification that significantly lowered my last weapons qualification. I still passed, however, my point is that I was someone who was a potential candidate for sniper school due to my ability to hit targets three football fields away. Does that one qulaification mean I was a suck shot? No.

Now as for context of the Marine SGTS statement, I would say to you is he trying to duplicate the shots when the Warren Commission says they occured. There is still GREAT debate in the assassination community over this issue, and I for one, am doubtful that they have the shots at the correct times. There is some pretty good research out there that demonstrates that Zapruder and other film footage that the people who caught the assasination on film had some hand movement with each shot due to reflex action. I think the Warren Commission did the best that they could, but on the timing of the shots, they got it wrong, and some of the hand movements on the film demonstrate that indeed they may have had the timing wrong.

As for his statement I do believe it applies to the time fame of the Warren Commission shots. And the SGT is correct, if the shots occured in the Warren Commission timeline it would be virtually impossible for Oswald to have done it. I for one, believe their timeline was wrong.



Have you been to Dealy Plaza? The accoustical analysis done by the House Select Committee of Dealy Plaza demonstrated that the Plaza produced echos. They placed mirophones all around the Plaza attempting to analyize the dictabelt recording. Earwitnesses are great - but the accoustical analysis of the Plaza with echos could prodice the same result.

The employees on the floor below the assasins nest, heard the shots above them and heard the brass hitting the floor after the empty metal jacket was ejected from the rifle. The telling statement that you made is the nimber five. Five out of all of the people felt they came from two directions. If there was more than one shooter, that number should be higher.





Dr. McClelland did not conduct the autopsy. He was in the heat of the moment attempting to save the life of the President. The beveling of the wound in the Presidents skull, and the patterns in the skull at the point of impact indicate one shot and one shot only. The bullet fragments from the impact to the presidents head which remained in what was left of his brain left a trail from back to front. There are no bullet fragments that made its way into the left hemisphere of the Presidents head. It is impossible to shoot him from the grassy knoll side in the head and NOT have any bullet fragments in the left hemisphere of his brain.

As for the puff of smoke, are you implying that they used a musketball? One little known fact is that while filming JFK Oliver Stone could not get a weapon to fire with a puff of smoke. The had to use special effects to make the puff of smoke in the movie. Unless there was a musket fired, there is no puff of smoke from a gun.

AS for the presidents motion, having viewed the Zapruder film at many speeds, and many angles I would say to you have you taken into account that the human body has reflexes. I would say to you have you taken into account the President was wearing a back brace that held him upright. Have you taken into account the forward motion of the vehicle? Have you noticed that when there is an explosion, the exiting debris tends to push the object away from the exiting debris.

I would recommend viewing this :http://hometown.aol.com/droberdeau/i...backdamage.gif Tell me the back of his head blew out? I see from the ear forward towards the eye socket.





The"pristine bullet" is not pristine. The discovery channel one year ago conducted an exact experiment of the shot. They used ballistics gell, and sheep bone and lined the dummies up in exactly the same position Connoly and Kennedy were in at the time of the shot. If you look at the actual seating arrangements, they were not directly in front of each other. You are correct, that the bullet would have had to mysteriously move to make the shot if the seats were not aligned in the manner they are in reality. Long story short, the Discovery Channel was able to fire the bullet through the ballistics material duplicating Kennedy's back and kneck, it made its way through that material and into the material representing Connoly's ribs and wrist. The bullet was in tact after hitting all of the material, yet it was not Pristine.

The argument agains the "magic bullet" generally does not take into account the seating arrangement inside of the vehicle, and the angle at which the vehicle was traveling away from the sniper's nest.
I would assume Oswald panicked after being arrested and facing the death penalty, hence the shooting.

The timing of the shots wasn't the only thing those shooters tried to re-create. "the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything".

No I haven't - should everyone with an opinion on the murder be at Dealy Plaza ?

And if there was one shooter, how do you account not just the five that heard it from that direction, but the 35 that heard the shots in front of the President ?

I don't think anyone said that doctor did the autopsy, but he did see the wound and gave his medical opinion. Nor did I refer to the JFK movie, but there were people, witnesses, talking about a puff of smoke from the grassy knoll. That was around long before that movie mentioned it.

The reflexes would make you move backwards if an object hits you from a direction in front of you. Would a brace or a moving car change that ? If all shots came from behind him, why the violent shake of the head to the back (and not including that little picture you posted, yes, it always looked to me like part of the back of his head went missing) ?







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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
Well, I found my physics evidence:O)



The physics of the head shot

Enjoy - I love physics.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:39 AM   #42
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13. HORRIBLE ACCIDENT THEORY - why would a very good shot, as you say Oswald was, miss his target 2 out of 3 shots, at that distance ?

...and "Can a forward shot from the grassy knoll explain all or part of the rearward lurch? Answers: No and qualified yes."

So there is a possibility.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:52 AM   #43
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I would assume Oswald panicked after being arrested and facing the death penalty, hence the shooting.

The timing of the shots wasn't the only thing those shooters tried to re-create. "the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything".
The Angle has been proven accurate by a recreation. The range was minimal for a basic marksman. The target moved from left to right making the shot even more easy, there was one tree branch, not much of an obstacle. If the timing is wrong as many of us contend, any recreation trying to fit the WC report, as your quote implied, is moot.

Quote:
No I haven't - should everyone with an opinion on the murder be at Dealy Plaza ? And if there was one shooter, how do you account not just the five that heard it from that direction, but the 35 that heard the shots in front of the President ?
You completely ignore the fact that an acoustical study was done on Dealy Plaza. The echos account for differing opinions.



Quote:
I don't think anyone said that doctor did the autopsy, but he did see the wound and gave his medical opinion. Nor did I refer to the JFK movie, but there were people, witnesses, talking about a puff of smoke from the grassy knoll.
He did not conduct the autopsy. The physical evidence from the autopsy is completely in agreement with one shooter from behind.

Quote:
The reflexes would make you move backwards if an object hits you from a direction in front of you. Would a brace or a moving car change that ? If all shots came from behind him, why the violent shake of the head to the back (and not including that little picture you posted, yes, it always looked to me like part of the back of his head went missing) ?

I take it you did not look at the close up of the Zapruder film. There is an initial motion forward at impart, with the right front of the brain exploding FORWARD. Consistent with a shot from the rear. The exposion forward forces the president backwards. All of the brain matter explodes FORWARD. A shot from the front right, would not have expolded out forward consistent with all known laws of physics. The mass & velocity of the bullet from the rear accounts for a forward explosion pushing the President backwards. And Yes, the back brace is important in all of this.

Finally, you ignore the AUTOPSY again, which shows there is not one shred of bullet fragment in the left hemisphere of the President's brain. There would have been a trail of fragments into the left hemisphere of the brain if there had indeed been a knoll shot. There is a significant trail from the back towards the right ocipital lobe. Indicating a back to front shot.

I suggest maybe reading some of the links.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:56 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by U2girl View Post
13. HORRIBLE ACCIDENT THEORY - why would a very good shot, as you say Oswald was, miss his target 2 out of 3 shots, at that distance ?

...and "Can a forward shot from the grassy knoll explain all or part of the rearward lurch? Answers: No and qualified yes."

So there is a possibility.
Do you read my posts? I am getting the distinct impression that you are not. I said, at the time I believed he was a bad shot, I theorized that he was actually shooting at Conally. This was YEARS ago when I had not found the evidence of his marksmaship abilities.

See, I am open to changing my views based on scientific evidence.

Maybe if you read my posts before attempting to slap me around, we could actually have a conversation.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:57 AM   #45
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You don't at least consider the official autopsy may have been tempered with ? Why are there official documents waiting to be revealed in this case if it's all that clear and simple ?

washingtonpost.com: Study Backs Theory of 'Grassy Knoll'
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:01 AM   #46
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So again, if he's a marksmen, why did he miss the target twice, and even any car once ? From what I read the snipers practice at bigger ranges than Oswald had between himself and JFK's car.

And it seems the only slapping is your little "enjoy, I like physics" mocking.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:17 AM   #47
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No I haven't - should everyone with an opinion on the murder be at Dealy Plaza ?

And if there was one shooter, how do you account not just the five that heard it from that direction, but the 35 that heard the shots in front of the President ?
This is one thing I really don't understand. Everyone knows from experience that noice is reflected by objects in the area, like buildings, walls, tunnel, trees, just everything.
Everyone has experienced hearing noise, like fireworks or whatever, from one direction though the source of the noise was located somewhere else.
Echoes and so on are really something every little child learns about just by leaving the house. Now when it comes to conspiracy theories about the assassination suddenly people seem to just forget about that and keep insisting the bang was heard from other directions.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:11 PM   #48
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So again, if he's a marksmen, why did he miss the target twice, and even any car once ? From what I read the snipers practice at bigger ranges than Oswald had between himself and JFK's car.

And it seems the only slapping is your little "enjoy, I like physics" mocking.

I give, I explained as best I know how. When I began my research on the assassination approximately twenty years ago, I believed the myth that he was a lousy shot. At the time, looking for MOTIVE, I could find none. I had read in the Warren Commission report that Marina, Oswald's wife, thought he had a grudge against Connaly. This would fit if her were a lousy shot.

Through research and in looking at evidence, I can safely say, he was not a lousy shot. At worst he was average. The original theory that I explored with an open mind, that Connaly was the target, does not fit the evidence so I have changed my opinion.

As I said earlier, it was a THEORY that I had years ago.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:17 PM   #49
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You don't at least consider the official autopsy may have been tempered with ? Why are there official documents waiting to be revealed in this case if it's all that clear and simple ?

washingtonpost.com: Study Backs Theory of 'Grassy Knoll'
Sure, I consider it, and I say gee, this would mean there would have to be so many people involved it reaches the point of absurdity that no single person has ever come forward to say we tampered with the evidence. Exactly how many people do you think covered this up.

Most of the official documents involving the autopsy have been released.

Oswald ran in intelligence circles. If you are the governement and trying to protect other agents, you classify things. It is alleged that Oswald was an FBI informant paid $200 a month and was given the informant number S-172. He had contact with the FBI while in New Orleans and in Dallas.

Why would the governement withhold documents that prove them innocent/guilty of anything? Why not destroy them. The sealed documents, as many of them have since the AARB was formed in 1993, completely debunked the old conspiracy theory. My bet, the release of any firther documents will debunk even more.

Put the autopsy aside - did you look at the link to the video? I do not see the back of his head blown off. I see from the ear to the forehead.

Now for the article you linked to......

A well written article that presents two sides to the dictabelt. Within the last few years (Your Article was 2001) there was a scientific analysis of the recording. Through the use of technology, they are able to place where the motorcyle had to have been in order for the recording to have been of the assasination. When you cue up the tape, with the Zapruder film, and other films taken of the motorcade, there is no motorcycle or other vehicle with a radio to have recorded the assasination. It could not have been made of the assasination.

The House Select Committe on Assasinations conducted research on the recording described in your article. Until the dictabelt recording which was one of the last pieces of evidence brought before the committee, the committee completely supported the findings of the Warren Commission saying Oswald was the only shooter up until this piece of evidence.

I am sure you have researched the dictabelt recording referenced in your article and have reached your conclusion, however, the article you present also demonstrates that the scientific community has disagreed on the validity of the recording.

There have been more current analysis and evidence presented that prove that police officer McClain, whom the House Committee concluded had the open mike, disagreed that his mike was open. The only officer, who apparently had an open mike at the time, who has admitted it to Vinccent Bugliosi, was at the Trade Mart, not Dealy Plaza.

All of the analysis done on the tape since your 2001 article, supports that the open mike recording was not of Dealy Plaza.

I would refer you to more recent studies refuting the 2001 evidence:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odell/
http://www.rd.com/can-technology-sol...le26805-3.html
Vincent Bugliosi, Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, endnotes pp. 184–190.
Posner, Gerald (1993). Case Closed. Random House. ISBN 0-679-41825-3. (pp. 238-242, unraveling of acoustic evidence in JFK conspiracy finding)

In the readers digest article - it cites Harvard researchers who found fault with the 2001 conclusions.

All in all, I think there is something recorded, but my understanding is that the recording is invalidated due to the fact that it is a recording of two transmissions over each other due to the microphone picking up the other transmission.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:13 PM   #50
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This is one thing I really don't understand. Everyone knows from experience that noice is reflected by objects in the area, like buildings, walls, tunnel, trees, just everything.
Everyone has experienced hearing noise, like fireworks or whatever, from one direction though the source of the noise was located somewhere else.
Echoes and so on are really something every little child learns about just by leaving the house. Now when it comes to conspiracy theories about the assassination suddenly people seem to just forget about that and keep insisting the bang was heard from other directions.
Then is there such a thing as a definite earwitness ?

If those 5/35 people are not reliable, does the rest of them not have trouble with echoes ?

Dreadsox: so who do you belive ? You don't believe a doctor that saw JFK's wound, earwitnesses, snipers re-creating the event according to Warren Comitee (well, aside tempering with evidence, what about the investigation overlooking things and/or making mistakes? you said yourself they may have the timing wrong, for example) and audio researchers.
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:26 PM   #51
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Dreadsox: so who do you belive ? You don't believe a doctor that saw JFK's wound, earwitnesses, snipers re-creating the event according to Warren Comitee (well, aside tempering with evidence, what about the investigation overlooking things and/or making mistakes? you said yourself they may have the timing wrong, for example) and audio researchers.

1. The Dr.'s at parkland mistook JFK's throat wound for an entrance wound instead of an exit wound. They make mistakes and misjudgements in the heat of trying to save someone's life. I do not have my medical testimony in front of me, but I will gladly respond when I have had the time to research exactly who you are quoting.

2. I have explained earwitnesses. It's called ECHO.

3. Again, if the Snipers were trying to recreate what the Warren Commission felt were shots and when they occured, all it does is prove the Warren Commission has the shot timing wrong. It does not refute any shred of physical evidence that all of the shots came from behind.

4. You site the audio research as a certainty. I have given you four sources and now a fifth (the fifth is an award winning computer generated analysis of the Zapruder film and the Dictabelt recording0. At best, the evidence is inconclusive. There is enough analysis on it since 1978 to show that it more than likely is not valid.

SECRETS OF A HOMICIDE: JFK ASSASSINATION - Project Home

I would also again ask, did you view the link I provided to the Zapruder film?
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:42 PM   #52
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1. Surely a doctor knows a difference between the exit and entrance wound ?

2. All earwitnesses face the echo. I think that's a tad solid ratio of earwitnesses to be attributed to echo alone. Anyway...

3. Maybe not just the timing. I think that is the main point of that re-creation.

4. It's just a link, and another point to consider. It's not a certainty, and like you said it argues both sides, the Comitee and Thomas.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:32 PM   #53
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Then is there such a thing as a definite earwitness ?
I guess not. It's similar with eyewitnesses. It's not certain that what they later recall of having seen or heard really is what happened. Sometimes you have to rely on them, but it's not unusual that their mind is playing tricks. Just yesterday I've read about a study that found how our "inner eye" can make us believe of seeing things that are just not there, like you have seen an ugly spider, are afraid of spiders, and suddenly in every dark corner you think you see a spider.
There is also in German legal language the so called "Knallzeuge" (bang witness). E.g. a car accident happened and the person didn't see it, but heard the bang behind him. He turns around imediately and what he sees then he connects with what he believes just has happened. Later when asked what happened he is 100% sure of having seen exactly how the two cars bumped into another when in fact he didn't. His mind makes him believe he did.

With noise it's even more complicated. Could you exactly locate each and every noise you hear. I'm sure it happened to you that you heard something, looked where you hear the noise coming from but there just isn't anything. Echoes can be very misleading, hence you always have to be careful taking earwitnesses into account. In a situation like Kennedy's assassination where people are standing there and suddenly shots occur and the president is hit would you really think the people can concentrate on where the shots are coming from, or differentiate between the actual bang and a reflection of that? Neither the five, the thirtysfive or the fiftythree people have to be right about what they think the noise was coming from.
However, if you put all these things together and look at all the research done not only by official institutions but also by independent ones and so on it's quite a compelling argument that in the end it really was just that one shooter from that library window. And believe me, when I was younger I heard a lot about the conspiracy theories and like most I know was convinced there was more truth to that then to what the government tells us. Then I saw different documentaries etc. where one theory after another got debunked quite succesfully. So, until convinced of the contrary I would side with dreadsox or A_Wanderer as I believe in actual research more than in theories often based just on basic understandings.

Same goes for conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. Often you see that reality is much more complex and difficult than basic theories of things make you believe.

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1. Surely a doctor knows a difference between the exit and entrance wound ?
Why would he? A physician knows a lot about illnesses, the body, and, at especially in the US I would guess, quite probably has seen gun shot wounds. However, this doesn't make him an expert on how exactly entrance and exit wounds etc. look like.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:44 PM   #54
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No, I think most ER physicians can tell the difference. Not that I necessarily find this suspicious (in the heat of the moment, he might have made the wrong call), but you don't really need to be an "expert" in order to tell the difference between the wounds.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:04 PM   #55
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Well, that's right, didn't consider him an ER physician at the moment. Yeah, you problably often can tell whether it's an entrance or exit wound, though it would be interesting in the case of Kennedy's wounds nevertheless.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:08 PM   #56
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1. Surely a doctor knows a difference between the exit and entrance wound ?
I am not sure what to say to this. It is clear you have an interest in the assasination and I applaud you for that. The Dr.'s at parkland hospital performed a tracheotomy on President Kennedy. They used the wound to President Kennedy's neck to perform the traech. They described it as an entrance wound. It was proven by the physical evidence to be an exit wound. The wound through the throat also exited through President Kennedy's knot in his tie. All of the fibers that the bullet tore through, point away from the body meaning the wound that the Dr.'s at Parkland hospital widened, was an exit wound. This is but one example of why you have the Dr.'s at Parkland, doing their job, which was to save his life, not autopsy, examine the body, ect. to determine what happened. That is why the autopsy report trumps the Dr.'s at Parkland.

Quote:
A logical approach to the origin of Kennedy's throat wound

Draft, 21 February 2000

There has been altogether too much discussion on the origin of JFK's throat wound (that is, whether it came from a frontal hit). It was a wound of exit, as the logic below shows. Given the simplicity and directness of the evidence, we almost don't need to use this course's pattern of reasoning [problem or question —> all possible hypotheses —> evidence —>strong evidence —> all hypotheses consistent with strong evidence —> simplest hypothesis consistent with strong evidence], but we will for sake of consistency with other logical topics under "Issues and Evidence."

The question:

From what direction did the bullet come that caused Kennedy's throat wound?

Possible answers

1. From the front or right front (wound of entrance).
2. From the rear (wound of exit).

Strong, validated evidence

1. JFK's body had two wounds on it, one in the front (throat) and one in the back (neck).
2. His body contained no bullets.
3. Therefore one of the wounds was for entrance and the other was for exit.
4. The wound in his back (neck) was an entrance wound (fibers around holes in shirt and jacket were bent forward).
5. Therefore, the throat wound had to be an exit wound.
6. The throat wound was small and regular, much like an entrance wound.
7. Ballistic tests on an artificial "neck" showed that because of the neck's small size and lack of hard structures, the exit wound looked much like the entrance wound, being only a little bigger and more irregular.
8. The throat wound was connected to the entrance wound in the rear neck by a line of internal damage to the right strap muscles, the upper right lung, and the right pleura.
9. Near the throat wound, the fibers of the slits in the two sides of the shirt were both bent forward.
10. The doctors at Parkland Hospital first thought the throat wound was one of entrance because they were not aware of the entrance wound in the back and the lack of a bullet in the body.
11. After discussing the back wound with Dr. Humes in Bethesda, Dr. Malcolm Perry of Parkland agreed that the throat wound was one of exit.

Hypotheses consistent with this evidence

1. The throat wound was one of exit, and the bullet came from the rear. (No other hypothesis possible.)

Simplest (and only) hypothesis consistent with this evidence

1. The throat wound was one of exit, and the bullet came from the rear.

As always, this answer must be considered provisional and subject to challenge by additional evidence.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:48 PM   #57
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Dreadsox - you still haven't answered this question...
What was Jack Ruby's motive for killing Lee Harvey Oswald???
He had mob connections and didn't even like the Kennedy's.
Why on earth would he kill the man who killed a person he didn't even like.
It simply does not make sense. There had to be more to the story!!!
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:57 PM   #58
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Dreadsox - you still haven't answered this question...
What was Jack Ruby's motive for killing Lee Harvey Oswald???
He had mob connections and didn't even like the Kennedy's.
Why on earth would he kill the man who killed a person he didn't even like.
It simply does not make sense. There had to be more to the story!!!
I believe I did.

1) He was either a nut and acted spontaneously or
2) He was ordered to do it.

The belief that Jack Ruby acted under orders does not change a shred of physical evidence that there was one shooter.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:04 PM   #59
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If the shot came from the side, why did his brain blow forward in a moving vehicle?

Oh, and notice the forward head motion that nobody on the grassy knoll side wants to acknowlege.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:28 PM   #60
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I believe I did.

1) He was either a nut and acted spontaneously or
2) He was ordered to do it.

The belief that Jack Ruby acted under orders does not change a shred of physical evidence that there was one shooter.

No. But if "he was ordered to do it" is proof of a conspiracy is it not???
Never mind the lone gunman theory or any of the other sometimes crazy sounding theories...IF JACK RUBY" WAS ORDERED TO DO IT" MEANS THAT SOMEONE ORDERED HIM TO DO IT...THUS A CONSPIRACY!!!
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