The people's voice on gay marriage

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MaxFisher

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http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...2005/10/05/the_peoples_voice_on_gay_marriage/

JEFF JACOBY
The people's voice on gay marriage
By Jeff Jacoby | October 5, 2005
WHEN CALIFORNIA lawmakers narrowly passed a bill legalizing same-sex marriage last month, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced that he would veto it. Not because he opposes legal rights for gay and lesbian couples -- he doesn't -- but because he opposes treating California elections as meaningless. Five years ago, Californians went to the polls and approved Proposition 22, a ballot initiative confirming the traditional definition of marriage. Unless they change their minds or are overruled by the Supreme Court, Schwarzenegger said, their decision ought to be binding. As his spokesperson put it in a statement, ''We cannot have a system where the people vote and the Legislature derails that vote."

Needless to say, liberal supporters of gay marriage had a fit. ''The governor is disingenuously claiming that the Legislature has overturned the intent of voters," a Los Angeles Times editorial growled. ''Does he not believe in the American system of representative democracy?" A letter to the editor mocked a governor who ''runs and ducks for cover behind the courts and 'the people.' Who's the girlie man now?" But it wasn't Schwarzenegger who was being disingenuous, and it would be no bad thing if more politicians showed comparable respect for laws passed at the polls. Proposition 22 -- which read, in its entirety, ''Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" -- was ratified by a lopsided majority of California voters, winning more than 4.6 million votes and carrying 52 of the state's 58 counties. What could the people possibly have done to make their intent any clearer?

In an earlier era, liberalism and respect for the vote went hand in hand. Liberals fought to extend the franchise to women. They were leaders in the civil rights movement, raising their voices -- and sometimes laying down their lives -- for the right of Southern blacks to vote. A century ago, progressives championed the direct election of US senators, a movement that culminated in the adoption of the 17th Amendment in 1913. But today liberalism all too often displays a strong antidemocratic streak, and nowhere is it more blatant than on the issue of same-sex marriage. Every time voters have been asked whether the fundamental definition of marriage -- the legal union of a man and woman -- should be radically redefined, they have given the same answer, and generally in a landslide. In the past five years, voters in 16 states have adopted constitutional amendments barring same-sex marriage. (Statewide votes are pending in five more states.)

Those who believe that gender should be irrelevant to marriage may be passionately convinced of the justice of their cause. But they have not managed to convince a majority of their fellow citizens. Faced with such strong and consistent electoral opposition, same-sex marriage advocates ought to be reworking their arguments and finding better ways to make their case. They could be trying harder to understand the concerns and depth of feeling on the other side. Or they could decide to wait until public sentiment has shifted, and then go back to the voters with a new referendum.

Instead they seem to have decided that if they can't win democratically, winning undemocratically will suffice. And so we have seen same-sex marriage by judicial fiat, as in Massachusetts. We have seen same-sex marriage by executive decree, as in New Paltz, N.Y., San Francisco, and a few other cities where marriage licenses were issued to gay and lesbian couples by order of the mayor. And we have seen same-sex marriage by legislative snub, as with the California bill last month.
The marriage radicals are not coy about their willingness to brush democratic scruples aside. When 130,000 Massachusetts voters petitioned state lawmakers in 2002 for a constitutional amendment in defense of traditional marriage, the Legislature's liberal leadership refused to bring it to the floor. Though the state Constitution required an up-or-down vote before the measure could be sent to the voters, the Legislature simply adjourned, strangling the amendment in its crib. The gleeful reaction of one lawmaker, state Senator Cheryl Jacques, was telling. ''I'll take a victory on this any way I can get it," she said. Not long afterward, Jacques became executive director of the Human Rights Campaign, a leading gay and lesbian advocacy organization.
Same-sex marriage proponents do themselves no favors with this win-at-all-costs, to-hell-with-democracy approach. And it is no answer to say that gay and lesbian marriage is a matter of civil rights, and no one's civil rights should be put to a vote. Whether same-sex marriage should be thought of as a civil right is precisely the question to be decided. The way to decide it fairly is to decide it democratically.
 
MaxFisher said:
And it is no answer to say that gay and lesbian marriage is a matter of civil rights, and no one's civil rights should be put to a vote. Whether same-sex marriage should be thought of as a civil right is precisely the question to be decided. The way to decide it fairly is to decide it democratically.

I imagine that you would have been in favor of putting the question of the African-American vote to a referendum, too.

:down:
 
Arnold will veto for one and only reason, to keep conservatives on his side. Period.

Also :up: to what Pax said. People just don't get it.
 
Jeff Jacoby always writes like that, you can go to Boston.com/the Globe and look at some of his other columns and see a pattern :wink: He's a good writer but I don't agree w/ him here

I don't see why we need to vote on such a basic right, gay people just want the right to marry that everyone else has. When was there a vote on straight marriage? I guess it was before I was born or something...
 
Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Irvine511 said:
but, as Pax has said, we don't leave civil rights up to the whim of the voters.

Then who determines civil rights?

What if the whim of the voters eventually is to support gay marriage but a conservative supreme court deems it unconstitutional?

Massachusetts aside, the "people" have voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage, including people in "blue states". These votes must be respected. I would feel the same way if they had voted in favor of gay marriage.

I find the flippant belittlement of these votes troublesome. Last time I checked we were living in a democracy.
 
Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


Then who determines civil rights?

What if the whim of the voters eventually is to support gay marriage but a conservative supreme court deems it unconstitutional?

Massachusetts aside, the "people" have voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage, including people in "blue states". These votes must be respected. I would feel the same way if they had voted in favor of gay marriage.

I find the flippant belittlement of these votes troublesome. Last time I checked we were living in a democracy.

Let's not forget that before women voted and before blacks voted, the "people" were overwhelmingly against that as well. Did that make it right? So a change in people's perception is the only way to make it right for you? Must be easy when they are on your side right now...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

BonoVoxSupastar said:


Let's not forget that before women voted and before blacks voted, the "people" were overwhelmingly against that as well. Did that make it right? So a change in people's perception is the only way to make it right for you? Must be easy when they are on your side right now...

Who determines which laws will be changed?

If the people's view or perception is discounted, then who makes the decision?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


Who determines which laws will be changed?

If the people's view or perception is discounted, then who makes the decision?

In this case Arnold should be brave enough to stand up for a people who don't have a big enough voice to counteract the fearful. That's how all great changes have been made it starts with one voice. But he choked and gave into the fear of his party.
 
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BonoVoxSupastar said:
In this case Arnold should be brave enough to stand up for a people who don't have a big enough voice to counteract the fearful. That's how all great changes have been made it starts with one voice. But he choked and gave into the fear of his party.

There are countless groups who don't have a big enough voice to "counteract the fearful."

PETA comes to mind. Their views are clearly in the minority. Should Arnold stand for them and make eating meat illegal?

How does a politician determine which groups he/she should stand up for?
 
Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


Then who determines civil rights?

What if the whim of the voters eventually is to support gay marriage but a conservative supreme court deems it unconstitutional?

Massachusetts aside, the "people" have voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage, including people in "blue states". These votes must be respected. I would feel the same way if they had voted in favor of gay marriage.

I find the flippant belittlement of these votes troublesome. Last time I checked we were living in a democracy.



did you feel the same way when those four black teenagers were allowed into a white high school in Alabama and Ike had to call in the National Guard? how about LBJ destroying the Democratic hold of the south (that continues to this day) because he passed the Civil Rights bill in 1965?

if we left everything up to direct democracy, we'd probably have the establishment of protestant Christianity as a national religion and we'd rename AmTrack the Jesus Choo-Choo.

civil rights, generally, are based upon interpretations of the Constitution and are generally determined through court cases -- see Brown vs. Board of Ed, and Lawrence vs. Texas.
 
Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Irvine511 said:
but, as Pax has said, we don't leave civil rights up to the whim of the voters. again -- miscegenation laws.

If they'd put civil rights for African Americans to a vote in my home state, Alabama, in the '60's, the white voters--the only ones who could vote--would have voted against giving them the vote. In 1964 Barry Goldwater, running against civil rights legislation, carried this state. Does all of this mean this vote would have been justified? I don't think so.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


There are countless groups who don't have a big enough voice to "counteract the fearful."

PETA comes to mind. Their views are clearly in the minority. Should Arnold stand for them and make eating meat illegal?

How does a politician determine which groups he/she should stand up for?



it comes back to constitutional law.

if eating meat were determined to be unconstitutional, then it could become law.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


There are countless groups who don't have a big enough voice to "counteract the fearful."

PETA comes to mind. Their views are clearly in the minority. Should Arnold stand for them and make eating meat illegal?
Animals aren't human. Last time I checked there weren't basic rights granted or denied my the constitution. But nice try.:|

MaxFisher said:

How does a politician determine which groups he/she shuld stand up for?
When they know they are right. You have one group being denied something all other consentual adults can have, based on nothing but religious interpretations. Nothing else, just pure fear.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

Irvine511 said:
did you feel the same way when those four black teenagers were allowed into a white high school in Alabama and Ike had to call in the National Guard? how about LBJ destroying the Democratic hold of the south (that continues to this day) because he passed the Civil Rights bill in 1965?

civil rights, generally, are based upon interpretations of the Constitution and are generally determined through court cases -- see Brown vs. Board of Ed, and Lawrence vs. Texas.

First of all, of course I would have supported black highschool students being allowed to attend white schools. Unfortunately, I wasn't born until 1980.

There was strong support in many other states for these civil rights laws to be passed. I don't think the same can be said for gay marraige. That's where I make my distinction between past civil rights ruilings and gay marriage. So far, with the exception of Massachusetts, every state that has had a vote for gay marraige has voted it down. If a large constituency of states support gay marriage, then I would take another look.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

BonoVoxSupastar said:
When they know they are right.

People's view of "right" is relative.

It must be nice to know what "right" is.

You sound like an evangelical christian. :wink:
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


There was strong support in many other states for these civil rights laws to be passed.

But what you don't understand is at one time there wasn't, so did that make it right up until there was majority support? You are completely avoiding that question.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

MaxFisher said:


People's view of "right" is relative.

It must be nice to know what "right" is.

You sound like an evangelical christian. :wink:

What's right is that all law abiding and consentual adults be given fair treatment and eual rights, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an evangelical christian to figure that out.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The people's voice on gay marriage

BonoVoxSupastar said:
What's right is that all law abiding and consentual adults be given fair treatment and eual rights.

Would you support polygamy?
 
Also, I'm not sure marriage is a "right".

I have a "desire" to be married, but I don't think it's my "right" to be married.
 
DrTeeth said:
It never seizes to amaze me how this is still an issue. :(



agreed.

it's all going to look so silly in 5-10 years when rights will vary, state by state, but in a majority of states at the very least civil unions will be offered, in the more progressive and educated states (New England, New York, some Lake States, the West Coast), and, once again, the Red States will be looked upon as ignorant and backwards and the bastion of bigots, just as they were during the civil rights era.

i'm out.
 
Irvine511 said:
the Red States will be looked upon as ignorant and backwards and the bastion of bigots

Irvine, your rhetoric is so touching. Maybe someday, with a lot of enlightenment, I'll be able to become an understanding and sensitive person like you. :angel:
 
MaxFisher said:
Also, I'm not sure marriage is a "right".

I have a "desire" to be married, but I don't think it's my "right" to be married.

In that sense, no, marriage is not a right. If you'd like to be married but don't have a willing partner, the government is under no obligation to provide you with one, nor can you select any schlub off the street and demand that someone recognize that person as your spouse just because you want one.

On the other hand, if two consenting adults mutually agree that they'd like to be married, how is it not a reasonable expectation that they should be allowed to do so?
 
MaxFisher said:


Irvine, your rhetoric is so touching. Maybe someday, with a lot of enlightenment, I'll be able to become an understanding and sensitive person like you. :angel:



you know what: i don't give a shit.

not about you personally, but about the simple fact that the Red States have been on the wrong side of history several times in the past, and the Blue States are, unquestionably, more educated. if that's snobbery, i'm happy to live with it.

Note Bene: i didn't say intelligent; i said educated.

the three most educated cities in the country are NYC, SanFran, and DC.

the state with the best colleges is Massachusetts.

we've all seen the IQ email and about which states voted for whom.

best public schools in the nation? Connecticut.

best public unversity system? California.

there is more than a casual link between the education of voters and their tolerance for diversity. one caveat: this does not translate into voting republican or democrat, as many eduated voters are also wealthy and thusly want lower taxes.

the urban areas of this country are always, always the most liberal (with perhaps the exception of ... you guessed it, *college* towns like Austin, Madison, Ann Arbor, Athens, etc.) and that's because that's where the most educated move and it's also where, guess what, people live every day with real, actual diversity. they're also the people most likely to be killed in a terrorist attack, yet they don't seem to support the GWOT as Bush defines it.

why? i'd point to the role of education and how it enables one to question orthodoxy, to live with ambiguity, to appreciate nuance, to adopt the worldview of another, and to value pluralism.
 
Irvine511 said:
best public unversity system? California.

Proposition 22 -- which read, in its entirety, ''Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California" -- was ratified by a lopsided majority of California voters, winning more than 4.6 million votes and carrying 52 of the state's 58 counties.

Let me guess, the 6 counties that voted against it all contained the best public universities.
 
Irvine511 said:
best public unversity system? California.

A blue state. That voted against gay marriage.

It is so convenient to blame right wing Christians for the lack of gay marriage

California is not a bastion of right wing Christians. It isn't a bastion of right wing people.

Yet, it voted against gay marriage.

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.
 
nbcrusader said:


A blue state. That voted against gay marriage.

It is so convenient to blame right wing Christians for the lack of gay marriage

California is not a bastion of right wing Christians. It isn't a bastion of right wing people.

Yet, it voted against gay marriage.

What may be helpful is to understand the broader public sentiment on the subject.

Also Michigan is a blue state which also voted against gay marriage.
 
Proposition 22 was also 5 years ago and may not accurately reflect today's opinion. I for one have changed my mind about a lot of things over the last 5 years.
 
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