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Old 01-05-2003, 05:07 PM   #21
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Hopefully this wasn't too chaotic...
thanks! it explained it perfectly.
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Old 01-05-2003, 09:49 PM   #22
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Cow,

Was this:

"some people will never admit and say "they were wrong, im sorry, we'll do what we can to chance."

at least they looks so rediculous that others can point and laugh at them"

in reference to me?
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
These four Canadians are dead.

How many innocent Afghanis?

How many European skiers?

How many Iranians air liner passengers?

How many Chinese embassy workers?

How many Japanese fishermen?


We all know 3200 people died on 9-11. Those deaths were intentional. The perpetrators should be brought to justice.

In the incidents listed above, the U S. military/government caused hundreds of deaths.

I am not qualified to judge the individuals involved. I donít know all the details. The least we can do is pay compensation to the families, investigate and try and make sure it does not happen again.

The new Bush policy of preemptive action is very worrisome. If we canít get it right - with a little restraint, how many more innocent lives will be lost when the trigger is pulled even quicker?

God help us.

Sting,

The purpose of my post was not to attack th U. S.

The defense of "go pills" is insignificant to the families and loved ones of the deceased.
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:24 PM   #24
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Originally posted by STING2
Deep,

Interesting that you neglect to include US military personal who have been killed in friendly fire incendents by foreign military forces and by our own forces. Military training does have risk and the probability of error is never 0.

68 US Naval personal were killed in 1967 when the Israelies mistakenly fired on a US Frigate believing it was an Egyptian Frigate.
Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:06 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

From this article:

"At high doses, these drugs can create a toxic psychosis characterized by paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and frequently, aggressive or violent behaviour," a recent paper on amphetamines published by Canada's Addiction Research Foundation says.

The paper suggests that 60 milligrams is at the top end of what is considered the "therapeutic range." The pilots were well below that level.

The U.S. investigation found that Major Schmidt requested pills the day of the 14-hour flight, obtaining them about three hours after waking up. He took 10 mg of the pills while Major Umbach took five mg.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...al_temp/3/3/27/
Dreadsox,
thanks for all the links here!

if the drugs are so low as to be harmless, are they also so low they don't do anything?

people have different responses to drugs, that may have been a high dose for that person...you know how the alchohol blood level charts go.

which leads me to what deep said about the victims families not caring that there was drugs involved. Same could be said for victims of car crashes here in America due to drunk drivers. The drivers, if they survive, get charged with manslaughter. But we also take very seriously people's choices to get behind the wheel after drinking, even a little. There is a huge campaign, and it started grass roots (Mothers against drunk driving, MADD) to get at the culture of drinking and driving. People get angry the person was drinking, not that they had an accident; obviously they couldn't react properly inebriated. Can you see the subtle difference of blame? I think the pilots are not going to get off, they will be punished, because the army would rather let them fall then get charged with overall negligence.

Americans are famous for friendly fire. I remember reading a story during Desert storm, where we had few battle casualties, but an entire troop fell sick (and probably chronically) when we blew up a chemical plant, only it all the poison blew downwind on their camp. We make mistakes, we have accidents. Two girls get run over in Korea, its an international incident. The modern world is dangerous, and war makes it more so. I'm sure the ROW will be busy decrying any of these attacks while innocent people are being blown up by suicide bombers in Israeli cafes, and the world is silent.

But heres my real complaint:
the "dextro amphetamine" drugs are CONTRABAND on the street, they are used for kids who's brain wiring is messed up and can't sit still. I know, i teach some. Likely they do distort judgement and produce aggression, even in small amounts, for regular people, and you have to have absolute precise judgement to fly a fighter plane.

"However the drug is not supposed to be used for combat missions, because of the possibility it could impair the judgment of pilots" says the Scotsman

and, exactly what that general, who once got them banned (and he must have had some reason) said, that if you can't stay awake, you shouldn't be out there...

so why is the airforce forcing such erratic flight schedules, that the airmen are fatigued, that is another puzzle.

pilots were (and probably are again) getting addicted to these drugs. Its like all the drugs athletes are taking, they feel the pressure to take them if they want to keep their jobs, maybe

meanwhile, back at home, we are being treated to a lovely melodramatic ad campaign, started right after 9/11, telling us that if we buy drugs we are supporting terrorists.

there is a beautiful irony here, if you would stop the nationalistic bickering you might find a good laugh here. lighten up, ok, bitterness doesn't solve problems.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:14 AM   #26
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Deep,

If your only concerned with the technical issues involving the friendly fire accident that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and not interested in attacking the US military and political officials, why are you bringing up:

"innocent Afghanis"

"European Skiers"

"Iranian Air Liner passengers"

"Chinese Embassy Workers"

"Japanese Fisherman"

Then talking about Bush's policy of pre-emption which to a certain degree has always been US policy and is not an abandonment of other strategies at all.

If your only concerned about the technical aspects of this specific case, don't bring in other things that have nothing to do with it, and select them in away that is so obviously anti-US military.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:28 AM   #27
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"Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc."

"It is more complicated for them."

"In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings."

This should read: Terrorist like Humas, Hezbolah, other Palestinian groups, and Al Quada have a terrible record of targeting and killing innocent people and then hiding among innocent civilians so as to cause the deaths of even more civilians when the military attempts to catch or kill them.

Its not very complicated for the terrorist.

In the West we rarely hear the fact that terrorist cause most of the deaths that are blamed on Israely soldiers because they cowardly try to blend in with the civilian population. For them its a two stage process. Cause civilian deaths, then get Israely security to come after you and try and catch or kill you while your in close proximity to other civilians there by causing even more deaths.

At Jenin where the Western media initially reported that 1,000 to 7,000 civilians died, it was later confirmed that only 48 civilians were killed which is what the IDF had claimed all along. Of course none of them would have been killed if the terrorist had not chosen the center of the city to make their base.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:50 AM   #28
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sting, when i make comments, i try and place them against the highest power.

in this case, im pointing the finger at the american government/propaganda machine that has not given this case the time of day.

ofcourse, the "time of day" is subjective, particularly if you compare summer and winter day light times...:P
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.

Er, deep, if this is true (and I don't doubt it is), I'd advise you not to say such a thing publicly. It is VERY politically incorrect and pretty much considered un-American.
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:08 AM   #30
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They have given it more time than the friendly fire incident that happened in Kuwait last year.
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Old 01-06-2003, 02:54 AM   #31
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Oh this thread is getting out of control.

I'll try to simplify it for some.

Men dies becasue two pilots didnt listen to their comanders.

Simple.

Not because they were forced to use drugs, or that the US is evil or that Canada doesnt know what they are doing.

There isnt any excuse for this. It isnt the US military's fault its the pilots fault. The thing so many ppl get pissed off about is that it seems to me that the US just brushes it off as friendly fire and moves on not bothered. Well i would guarentee if it was any other country that did it to the US their leader would be apoligizing and there would be public outrage. I dont see that with the US. Bush didnt comment on it until 37 hr after it happened, and he had 4 opp. in that span to make comments to the media. It isnt that these men were killed because of a few pilots werent listening its that the ppl it charge arent as outraged as i am. And for some in this thread that try to deflect blame (ie. Why was the Canadians training at night, well has anyone ever heard of getting training at night because you might have to fight at night!) it is this pomposs attitude that makes me pissed!
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Old 01-06-2003, 03:29 PM   #32
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Bonoman,

Did it ever occur to you that most military's do their training prior to going into a combat zone, not when they get into the combat zone? They also do not do it when there are enemy combatents potentially in close proximity to their positions. How many American Units in D-Day decided to start training for the operation when they got on the beaches of Normandy? Another reason Canada needs to increase its defense spending so they can actually have training before they go into a combat zone.

Well your guarentee that there would have been more apology from any other leader if it had been a friendly fire incedent when US forces were hit by another countries is rubbish. The level of apology from the Israely government for the deaths of 68 US sailors in a friendly fire incident is the same as the US apology to the Canadians for the Afghan incident. Thing is, coverage in the news was far less about the incident with Israel than this Afghan incident with the Canadians.

Your forgetting the hundreds of friendly fire incidents from decades of NATO military exercises in Europe and the USA. Most of these never even made it to the mainstream news and involved soldiers of more than a dozen nations.

You want to talk about a pompass attitude, how about this attitude that the tragedy of the loss of these four Canadians is being elevated to a level more important than the large number of other NATO and other soldiers who have died in similar incidents.

This is primarily because most civilians do not understand the frequency of Friendly Fire and that this is a tragedy that has happened within ones own armed forces and between other armed forces many times in the past. Of course in attempting to explain this to others, you get unfairly accused of deflecting criticism and being insensitive. Yet, where were they when the tragedy happened to American forces. Where was their sensitivity and overwhelming respect that supposedly the USA now lacks in regards to the Canadian issue.

The Fact is, no matter what the USA would have done or will do in regards to this issue, it will never be enough for others. The USA from the President to the media are all guilty because we did not give attention and coverage on a level ten times greater to this incident than the many other tragedy's of friendly fire in the past.
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Old 01-06-2003, 04:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The Fact is, no matter what the USA would have done or will do in regards to this issue, it will never be enough for others.
don't know about that
I do know that the knowledge that pilots in a combat zone using speed (what this thread was about initially) isn't going to win my sympathies
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Old 01-06-2003, 04:10 PM   #34
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I dont guve a shit about Israel i'm talking about Canada-US, a much closer relationship then Isreal-US. Because Israel didnt show remorese give your president the right. Two wrongs dont make a right.

Oh and about the Canadians fighting at night. Last time you werent there. But i'm guessing that maybe the forces wanted to train on the terrein they were to be fighting on. And they wanted to do it at night. But thats besides the point. Actually everything you say is besides the point. I dont give a shit about things that happened in the past i care about this one thing right now. Its what the thread was started for and its the thing i am foccussing on. If you would like to comment on things in the past then start a thread. In your whole posts in this thread all i seen you say that this is a regualar occurenss. Well i dont care if it is, it still means humans lifes were taken and for that i think it deserves a apology from your leader as the same would definitly happen from Jean Chretien. For fuck sake the man apoligized that his aid called Bush a moron!! Its called respect. And from what i see you are just to busy trying to cover your ass to relize that everything would have been solved if you would have shown a little respect.
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Old 01-06-2003, 04:39 PM   #35
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Bonoman,

Respect eh? "I don't give a shit about things that happened in the past" I guess I could take this to mean that the tragedies of friendly fire in the past and how they were resolved do not mean anything to you. If you think the USA has done something that was improper or not the norm, you'll have to look at the "past" occurences in such events to see if its "current" behavior was really out of line or showed a lack of respect.

The President is remorseful about the deaths of any of our Allies, the problem here is that you want to have special treatment above and beyond what the soldiers in other friendly fire incidents have recieved. Is that fair to those families and soldiers who died in similar tragedies, to have 4 Canadians elevated above their loved ones in terms of the attentions and treatment they recieve? Is that respectful?

Thats right I have not been to Afghanistan, but one of my best friends just got back from working with Special Forces units all over the country for 6 months in Afghanistan! So I do have a very informed source, that got to see more than most soldiers in Aghanistan due to the nature of his job there.

I'm sure Allied forces that assaulted to beaches of Normandy on D-Day would have loved if the Germans had let thempractice the operation on the beaches a couple of times. That obviously was not possible. They practiced in other area's they had terrain similar to where they were about to fight. Afghanistan is a rough part of the world, but its not another planet in another Galaxy. If the Canadians wanted to do more realistic training at night, few other countries have as varied a terrain as Canada does to do that. Training in a live Combat zone at night is a dangerous thing and might have contributed to the friendly fire incident. I don't think its beside the point and should be looked at in order to get to the bottom of the whole case.

Again, if your concerned about respect, how about looking into other friendly fire incidents before you decide to elevate the tragedy of 4 Canadians above the tragedy of other soldiers who have died in friendly fire incidents.
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Old 01-06-2003, 04:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Bonoman,





Thats right I have not been to Afghanistan, but one of my best friends just got back from working with Special Forces units all over the country for 6 months in Afghanistan! So I do have a very informed source, that got to see more than most soldiers in Aghanistan due to the nature of his job there.

I'm sure Allied forces that assaulted to beaches of Normandy on D-Day would have loved if the Germans had let thempractice the operation on the beaches a couple of times. That obviously was not possible. They practiced in other area's they had terrain similar to where they were about to fight. Afghanistan is a rough part of the world, but its not another planet in another Galaxy. If the Canadians wanted to do more realistic training at night, few other countries have as varied a terrain as Canada does to do that. Training in a live Combat zone at night is a dangerous thing and might have contributed to the friendly fire incident. I don't think its beside the point and should be looked at in order to get to the bottom of the whole case.

Again, if your concerned about respect, how about looking into other friendly fire incidents before you decide to elevate the tragedy of 4 Canadians above the tragedy of other soldiers who have died in friendly fire incidents.
Well if former presidents have done the same in past situatations then that is a disgrace. Once. Maybe but if this is what occur every time then thats complete bullshit.

How in your right mind cuold you compare Afghanistan to Normandy?? They are so far from eachother its actually laughable. The only thing that could be compareable is that they were both wars. Nothing else. Were the troops under constant attack? No! Were they under attack from forces that were very powerful? NO! They are so seperate that they cant be compared. Oh and i forgot about you friend from the military. Opps. Maybe you should go ask him before you make your comments. Just because you have a firend doent mean you or even he is all knowing. Come on.

And i am certainly not trying to elevate the four men. If it is too much to ask for an apology or an expanation or just respect then there is something definitly wrong. If you think this is to much then say so. Please. Tell me if you think that even commenting on the issue when you have 4 seperate chances to is so wrong. Can you do that?
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Old 01-06-2003, 05:48 PM   #37
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in this case, im pointing the finger at the american government/propaganda machine that has not given this case the time of day.

I agree with this 100%. When I ask people their thoughts on this case I get HUH? That what are you talking about look.



Bonoman,

I think the only point Sting was attempting to make was that it was a poor choice of places to be conducting a training excercise. It may very well have been a contributing factor in all of this mess. I would agree that it was not the only reason or contributing factor in the incident. One of the articles that I postedn had the transcript of the voice recordings. It was awful to read. The pilot really thought he was under fire. It is a shame.

Soldiers, no matter where they are place their lives on the line for their citizens. It is ALWAYS a trajedgy when lives are lost, especially when it was an accident. I for one am thankful that soldiers from all over the world have been by our sides through this mess.

I made a statement in another thread about three weeks ago that I have come to regret. I shot my mouth off without my brain being loaded. I said that we had not had a lot of support from other nations after 9/11. It was an incorrect statement. I have since been doing quite a bit of reading on the topic of the War on Terror, and I was 100% wrong in my impressions. To anyone who comes from a country other than the US, I am sorry for my statement.

Peace
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Old 01-06-2003, 06:23 PM   #38
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Bonoman,

You were the one who decided to bring up the fact that I have never been to Afghanistan in an obvious attempt to discredit anything I have to say on the issue. I decided to defend my self on this charge, but I should of just let it go, because I did not know I would soon be accused of being "all Knowing", something I had never suggested.

I was never attempting to compare the technical situation in Afghanistan to the technical situation in the invasion on D-Day. I was attempting to get you to understand that there is a greater danger in performing a live fire exercise in the middle of a combat zone. A live fire training exercise can be dangerous sometimes even when its done back in the safety of home.

If you want the President of the United States to make a personal comment or an apology in the case of the Canadians, are you ready to explain to the families of other friendly fire victims why the 4 Canadians should get this special treatment when their soldiers did not? Did it ever occur to you that the President does not want to offend other families of victims of friendly fire by giving unique or special treatment to the Canadians? Its not right to single Bush out for acting in a way that is no different from the way he has acted in other friendly fire incendents and the other presidents and heads of states of other countries have acted.
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Old 01-07-2003, 04:01 AM   #39
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Quote:
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Bonoman,

You were the one who decided to bring up the fact that I have never been to Afghanistan in an obvious attempt to discredit anything I have to say on the issue. I decided to defend my self on this charge, but I should of just let it go, because I did not know I would soon be accused of being "all Knowing", something I had never suggested.

I was never attempting to compare the technical situation in Afghanistan to the technical situation in the invasion on D-Day. I was attempting to get you to understand that there is a greater danger in performing a live fire exercise in the middle of a combat zone. A live fire training exercise can be dangerous sometimes even when its done back in the safety of home.

If you want the President of the United States to make a personal comment or an apology in the case of the Canadians, are you ready to explain to the families of other friendly fire victims why the 4 Canadians should get this special treatment when their soldiers did not? Did it ever occur to you that the President does not want to offend other families of victims of friendly fire by giving unique or special treatment to the Canadians? Its not right to single Bush out for acting in a way that is no different from the way he has acted in other friendly fire incendents and the other presidents and heads of states of other countries have acted.
See where we disagree is that for some reason you would think an apoligy is special treatment. If this hasnt happened to others that were accidently killed in the past then it is a shame! Just because it has never happen (apology) doesnt mean its not in order. Thats like saying just because woman didnt vote that they should never? Really if we were to enver learn from our past mistakes then would society ever advance?

Really if you cant get past the idea that an apology is in order when a person is killed accidently then i really am done with you. If you were to spill coffee on a co-worker and it was a accident would you not say sorry. Or would you say you shouldnt have been standing there. I really dont see the logic. And if you dont want to give special treatment then what i would advise your pres to do is send out a memo with every name ever that has been killed in FF so no is given special treatment. Have you ever thought that maybe it would be good to set the presidant rather then follow old rules.
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Old 01-07-2003, 01:51 PM   #40
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Bonoman,

Thing is, if the friendly fire incident with the four Canadians had not happened, you probably wouldn't give a single thought about friendly fire incidents in general or even mention it in this forum. Its only because four Canadians were killed in a friendly fire incident by the USA that your even concerned about the issue. I have not heard you bring up Americans that have been killed in friendly fire incidents in threads unrelated to this one.

Another thing is why does Bush suddenly have to be the one to follow a standard procedure for each friendly fire incident. Why single him out above other heads of state who's soldiers have been involved in friendly fire incidents.


Finally, you have yet to explain why the Canadians suddenly deserve special treatment that other friendly fire victims did not recieve. How would you explain to the families of US soldiers who were killed in friendly fire incidents why the four Canadians deserve better treatment than their loved ones? Its not about your perception of what the apology should be, its about why the four Canadians deserve a level of treatment beyond other friendly fire victims. How is that fair or respectful to them?
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