The Nativity Story movie

[yolland]

Actually, according to the Bible, you are incorrect. The crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace was indeed crying out for Christ's crucifixion.

Christ was popular with the people at first, but the religious leaders stirred up people's anger against him.

How do the attitudes of "the crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace" equate to the attitudes of "the Jewish people," period? There were roughly 4 million Jews in the world at that time. You make it sound as if we're the Borg or something--to know one is to know all, unless individual opinions to the contrary are explicitly confirmed as having been stated.

 

[80sU2isBest]

How do the attitudes of "the crowd that had gathered outside Pilate's palace" equate to the attitudes of "the Jewish people," period? There were roughly 4 million Jews in the world at that time. You make it sound as if we're the Borg or something--to know one is to know all, unless individual opinions to the contrary are explicitly confirmed as having been stated.

Individually, there were many people who followed Christ, of course. However, according to the new Testament, the Jews who were around Jesus at the time -as a whole- did turn against him.

John 5: 16-18

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If Jesus had appeared to any other group, that group would also have rejected Jesus.

The Jews did not take the life of Jesus Christ. Neither did the Romans. Christ gave his life willingly, so that we might be saved through him.

 

[BVS]

According to the Bible, you are wrong.

First, Jesus is alive today.

Secondly, I was going to bring up the nature of Christ's second coming and how it will be impossible for his children not to know him, but I really do not need to go into great detail on that.

Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.

And if you notice I did put Christians in quotes. For you can't tell me that as many "christians" who fall under the spells of false prophets such as the Faldwells, Robertsons, Bakers, and the like that it's going to be THAT easy.

Many are going to reject a Jesus that tells us to love our neighbor, love our enemy, denouce the worship of captialism, and doesn't cast aside homosexuals.

 

[yolland]

John 5: 16-18

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him,[c] because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
..............................................
The Jews did not take the life of Jesus Christ. Neither did the Romans. Christ gave his life willingly, so that we might be saved through him.

He may well have given his life willingly but someone was still guilty of taking it for what were likely trumped-up reasons, I've no problem with that. In my view, the fact that the text makes the generalization "the Jews" to begin with ought to give one pause, and it isn't logical to assume on such basis that every Jew who encountered Jesus at some time or another must therefore have supported his crucifixion. Furthermore, violating the Sabbath was not a capital crime, neither was calling God one's "Father" (as the Psalms say of David) if the Tetragrammaton was not invoked; anyone who "sought to kill" someone on these bases was not acting in accord with Jewish law, and in any case even if they were it would've been moot, since as I've mentioned elsewhere the Sanhedrin did not have capital-crimes jurisdiction in Roman Judaea and the Romans did not regard Jewish law violations as valid bases for prescribing capital punishment. In fact, the Pharisees under Hillel had already pushed through the Sanhedrin a reform making it legal to violate the Sabbath moratorium on work to share food with the poor and to minister to the sick, as Jesus does in John 5 which you quoted. Preaching on Sabbath was, of course, always permissible.

 

[coemgen]

Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.

And if you notice I did put Christians in quotes. For you can't tell me that as many "christians" who fall under the spells of false prophets such as the Faldwells, Robertsons, Bakers, and the like that it's going to be THAT easy.

Many are going to reject a Jesus that tells us to love our neighbor, love our enemy, denouce the worship of captialism, and doesn't cast aside homosexuals.

Wow. I strongly agree with BVS. In many ways, being a "Christian" has nothing to do with following Christ for a lot of people. It's a club. It's a political belief system.

It's sickening.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Wow. I strongly agree with BVS. In many ways, being a "Christian" has nothing to do with following Christ for a lot of people. It's a club. It's a political belief system.

It's sickening.

Yes, there are many people who call themselves "Christian" who don't even know what it means to be a Christian; ie: they think that being a church-goer makes them a Christian. But I'm talking about Christians. And there is no getting around the fact that Jesus said that his followers know him and know his voice.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Physically Jesus is not alive today. I'm speaking strictly physical terms here.

He is physically alive. Christ was resurrected physically and he still has a physical body.

 

[80sU2isBest]

it isn't logical to assume on such basis that every Jew who encountered Jesus at some time or another must therefore have supported his crucifixion.

I didn't make that assumption. I even said that some Jews did follow him. Heck, all the disciples were Jews, as were his other friends and family.

 

[yolland]

Not "following" someone and seeking to have them put to death are two very different things. It is the latter assumption I was speaking of.

 

[BVS]

and he still has a physical body.

Where is he? Kinda contradicts the second coming, doesn't it?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Where is he? Kinda contradicts the second coming, doesn't it?

I didn't say he's on the earth. He is sitting at the right hand of his Father. But he is physically alive.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Not "following" someone and seeking to have them put to death are two very different things. It is the latter assumption I was speaking of.

Now that I think of it, I have to admit the possibility that "The Jews sought to kill him" may have been specifically referring to the bulk of the religious leaders and not the bulk of the average Jewish population.

 

[BVS]

I didn't say he's on the earth. He is sitting at the right hand of his Father. But he is physically alive.

Well this is where you and I have disagreeing views of heaven. I don't believe we have physical bodies in heaven.

 

[yolland]

"The Jews sought to kill him" may have been specifically referring to the bulk of the religious leaders and not the bulk of the average Jewish population.

Perhaps, though if by "bulk of the religious leaders" you mean the Sanhedrin--and who knows whom the average person might have deemed worthy of the title "our religious leaders"--it doesn't seem likely, based on the various Passion accounts, that a full Sanhedrin assembly (71 members) was in fact gathered to pursue that in the end. Of course there were likely malevolent "religious leaders" outside the Sanhedrin as well, but who knows who they might have been or what their numbers might have been like.

However, I am appreciative that you acknowledge the possibility.

Getting back to the topic of the movie...I don't think a portrayal of Herod and his court as evil men should in itself provoke much controversy; Herod is definitely remembered as a cruel and loathsome despot in Jewish history as well as Christian history. And his cruelty certainly extended to the "Jewish leaders" of his time--Herod's first act in power was to have 69 of the Sanhedrin's 71 members executed, then to pack its ranks with men favorable to (or at least duly afraid of) him, a strategy which would be employed to varying degrees by subsequent Roman rulers as well (and Herod was definitely a Roman ruler, politically speaking--it was the Roman Senate who appointed him king). And his sons, among whom Rome divided the various Judaean provinces upon his death (over the pleas of a deputation of 50 priests and rabbis dispatched to Rome by the Sanhedrin to request otherwise), are likewise remembered unfavorably. Although the slayings of male babies in and around Bethlehem recounted in the Gospel of Matthew are not mentioned anywhere else, it doesn't seem out of character with Herod's homicidal paranoia generally (he also had his second wife, three of his sons, his mother-in-law, his uncle, and a later High Priest axed, not to mention the leaders of the numerous rebellions against him), and especially since Bethlehem was a small place and the ultimate number of children allegedly thus killed not likely very high, it would not be particularly surprising if such an incident simply got lost amidst the general bloodiness of his rule. Incidentally, most of Herod's closest advisors and financiers were Greeks, as he was quite the Hellenophile and frequently made logrolling-ish contributions to the Olympic Games and to constructions of public monuments in other countries of the Roman Empire, which likely did nothing to help his image with his subjects.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well this is where you and I have disagreeing views of heaven. I don't believe we have physical bodies in heaven.

Christ was raised physically from the dead. He had a physical body. So where did that body go when he ascended unto Heaven? Why would he lose it?

As for those who are in Heaven now? I don't believe they currently have physical bodies. And they won't ever have the same physical bodies they had while on earth. But the Bible says that people will have glorified (perfect) physical bodies in Heaven after Christ's Second Coming.

 

[BVS]

Why would he lose it?

Why would he need it?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Why would he need it?

I really don't know why he would need it, but then again, there are a lot of things that I don't understand.

What I do know is that the Bible says that he was resurrected with a physical body and at the time that he ascended to Heaven, he was in the physical body. It says nothing about him losing his physical body. We lose our physical bodies when we go to Heaven because our bodies die. Do you believe that Christ's physical body died on the cross, he was resurrected in a new glorified body and then that new glorified body died when he ascended into Heaven?

 

[deep]

ascended to Heaven

What does this mean?

 

[coemgen]

I don't know that he has a physical body in heaven. I've never heard that.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I don't know that he has a physical body in heaven. I've never heard that.

Where did it go when he ascended into Heaven? Did it die?

 

[BVS]

I really don't know why he would need it, but then again, there are a lot of things that I don't understand.

What I do know is that the Bible says that he was resurrected with a physical body and at the time that he ascended to Heaven, he was in the physical body. It says nothing about him losing his physical body. We lose our physical bodies when we go to Heaven because our bodies die. Do you believe that Christ's physical body died on the cross, he was resurrected in a new glorified body and then that new glorified body died when he ascended into Heaven?

Well I think here is just one of the problems with taking the Bible literally. Just like Deep pointed out, ascending to heaven would mean heaven is somewhere in the sky, that it's some type of physical place. Jesus would be the only one in a human body, one that is 2000 years old by the way. He'd be the only one that would still have to eat, sleep, and breathe that is if it hasn't fallen apart on him.

There's no problem with reading the Bible and realizing there are analogies used.

 

[BVS]

Where did it go when he ascended into Heaven? Did it die?

Did Jesus ever sneeze? Break a bone? Did he ever get sick?

 

[80sU2isBest]

What does this mean?

After Christ was resurrected from the dead in a physical body and appeared to his disciples, he ascended into Heaven.

Here are two of the accounts of this ascension...

Luke 24:

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.[f]
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.[g]
43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And you are witnesses of these things.
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them.
51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
53 and were continually in the temple praising and[j] blessing God. Amen.

and

Acts 1:

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
The Holy Spirit Promised

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me[a] in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Jesus Ascends to Heaven

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

[80sU2isBest]

Did Jesus ever sneeze? Break a bone? Did he ever get sick?

Before the resurrection, yes, I'm sure he got sick, because he had a completely human body that was subject to illnesses.

Not after the resurrection, because he had a glorified body.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well I think here is just one of the problems with taking the Bible literally. Just like Deep pointed out, ascending to heaven would mean heaven is somewhere in the sky, that it's some type of physical place. Jesus would be the only one in a human body, one that is 2000 years old by the way. He'd be the only one that would still have to eat, sleep, and breathe that is if it hasn't fallen apart on him.

It's a glorified body, a perfect body. And anyway, there are indeed verses in the Bible that refer to eating in Heaven.

There's no problem with reading the Bible and realizing there are analogies used.

When deciding what's an anlogy and what isn't, you have to go by context. When Chrsit appeared to the disciples and they asked him if he was a spirit, he said that he was flesh and bones, not a spirit. He invited Thomas to touch the holes in his hands and side. Is there anything in that contexct that would lead anyone to believe it was an analogy?

 

[deep]

80s,

I am fairly familiar with a lot of scripture

I just don't take it at face value

Well I think here is just one of the problems with taking the Bible literally. Just like Deep pointed out, ascending to heaven would mean heaven is somewhere in the sky, that it's some
type of physical place. Jesus would be
the only one in a human body, one that is 2000 years old by the way. He'd be
the only one that would still have to eat, sleep, and breathe that is if it hasn't fallen apart on him.

There's no problem with reading the Bible and realizing there are analogies used.

and people were cast down into Hell.


to me, it seems the writers wrote what made sense to them


when one died, they disappeared, where could they be?

no where on earth, therefore they must be up in the heavens, and that must be where God and the Angels ascend from

because at that time there was no space travel or exploration
or even science to refute the claims


likewise, Satan, and evil doers are cast down into Hell,(because God and the angels are up in heaven) and they knew that down in the earth was heat, fire and the like


the Bible is full of these references

lets not forget that Muhammad ascended to Heaven, too.


yet, we have not found Heaven and the hosts of Heaven with all this space exploration.

 

[Justin24]

The Irony. She plays the Virigin Mary. And yet she is Pregnant in real life. 16 years old and her Boyfriend is 19.

Pregnant film star very young says worried grandmother

Monday October 9, 2006

Keisha Castle-Hughes' grandmother says news that the 16-year-old Whale Rider star is pregnant is a shock and she's worried Keisha is too young.

When the Herald asked if all the family were happy at the pregnancy, Kinnie Hughes had reservations.

"No, I'm not. She's very young and it's a bit of a shock to the family."

She would not comment further, other than to confirm that Keisha was overseas filming and her mother, Desrae Hughes, was with her.

Castle-Hughes' agent, Gail Cowan, told the Herald on Sunday the actress and her boyfriend of three years, Bradley Hull, were "totally" happy about the baby, due next autumn.

It also reported other family members as shrugging off concerns about her age. She turns 17 in March.

Ms Cowan did not return Herald phone calls yesterday and other family members said they had been instructed not to say anything.

Castle-Hughes is due to start filming Hey, Hey It's Esther Blueburger in Australia this month.

Whether her pregnancy will affect her role in the film is not known.

Keisha is cast as Sunni, the best friend of the 13-year-old Jewish Esther in a coming-of-age film in which Esther secretly switches from a private school into a public school.

It also stars Toni Collette, as Esther's mother.

Castle-Hughes was the youngest person to be nominated in the Best Actress category for the Academy Awards for her role as Paikea in Whale Rider.

She met Hull, 19, when the two were at Penrose High School. Neither could be contacted yesterday.

Whale Rider producer John Barnett told Newstalk ZB he was surprised, but did not think the pregnancy would put the actor out of work.

He joked it could have been an immaculate conception, in reference to Castle-Hughes' role as the Virgin Mary in her latest film, The Nativity Story. The film opens in December.

According to People magazine, Castle-Hughes' pregnancy is just one in what it is dubbing a Hollywood baby boom.

Last week Tori Spelling of former Beverley Hills 90210 fame announced she was expecting a baby with husband Dean McDermott. Her Beverley Hills co-star Jennie Garth had their third baby, a daughter, last Saturday.

Desperate Housewives actress Marcia Cross, 44, said she was expecting twins and actress Maggie Gyllenhaal had a daughter last Tuesday.

Actresses who have continued filming while pregnant included Catherine Zeta-Jones in Traffic in 2000 and Jodie Foster in Panic Room in 2002.

 

[BVS]

Before the resurrection, yes, I'm sure he got sick, because he had a completely human body that was subject to illnesses.

My point was not everything was documented. How would anyone know what happened to Christ's body? They were still earth-bound when writing the scripts.

Not after the resurrection, because he had a glorified body.

What does this mean? Where does it say this?

 

[BVS]

It's a glorified body, a perfect body. And anyway, there are indeed verses in the Bible that refer to eating in Heaven.

Yes all of which is analogy.

When deciding what's an anlogy and what isn't, you have to go by context. When Chrsit appeared to the disciples and they asked him if he was a spirit, he said that he was flesh and bones, not a spirit. He invited Thomas to touch the holes in his hands and side. Is there anything in that contexct that would lead anyone to believe it was an analogy?

Why would that part be an analogy?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Why would that part be an analogy?

When I brought up the part about Christ rising from the dead in a physical body, you said that many things in the Bible are analogies. Why did you bring up analogies at that specific time, if you did not think that the part about him being in a physical body was an analogy?