The more Iraqi TV shows Saddam....

[womanfish]

the more I think he is either dead, seriously injured or in some other country (this also goes for his sons)

What do you guys think?

 

[Screaming Flower]

i think he's seriously injured too. i have nothing to back that up it's just a feeling i have.

 

[diamond]

that is the present specumalation at this point in time

some of my contacts have told me he is at an underground discotecque
listening to
hip-hop music, smoking Clove cigerrettes

 

[Klaus]

If Saddam is seriousely injured and still the system goes on with war i wonder what this ultimatum of G.W.B. would have changed if Saddam would have agreed.

 

[Scarletwine]

Sadaam appeared in Iraqi television yesterday with his cabinet and two sons. Of course there is no way to tell when it was taped. It appeared in Egyptian, Jordanian, and Lebanese TV.

 

[AcrobatMan]

i think saddam is safe in his bunker 100 metres beneath Baghdad, i read a report in which it was said - the bunker would be safe even if a hiroshima/nagasaki nuke bomb is dropped.

i really hope the regime crumbles soon and this war comes to a quick end.

acrobatman

 

[verte76]

i really hope the regime crumbles soon and this war comes to a quick end.

acrobatman

So do I.

 

[womanfish]

If Saddam is seriousely injured and still the system goes on with war i wonder what this ultimatum of G.W.B. would have changed if Saddam would have agreed.

That's why I don't, and the U.S. military, thinks that he is most likely still alive, but probably giving orders from a hospital bed. As long as the Iraqi public and military still THINKS he is alive and in control, they will carry on. If he would have just up and left, it would have been a totally different story.

 

[womanfish]

Sadaam appeared in Iraqi television yesterday with his cabinet and two sons. Of course there is no way to tell when it was taped. It appeared in Egyptian, Jordanian, and Lebanese TV.

That's my point. How hard would it be for Saddam to do a live broadcast? Or at least tape a spoken message and hold up a dated newspaper, etc...

What makes this all the more questionable is this:
There was a rumor that started just yesterday from intelligence sources saying that some of Saddam's family may be fleeing Baghdad. Within the SAME DAY, a "statement" comes out from the Iraqi govt. (supposedly Saddam) saying that this is false.

The rumor that he may be dead or injured has been going on for a week and a half - and he has done NOTHING to prove this rumor false. His appearences are obviously taped, one has as many as 70 edits in it, he makes no reference to POW's, he makes no credible reference to any battles that are going on. He mentioned Um Qasr and Nasariah, both of which are obvious places for the coalition to go through and secure on their way to Baghdad from Kuwait.

 

[Klaus]

..or it's yet another pr gag from the pentagon to weaken Iraqi morale..

 

[Klaus]

..which is good if it would shorten the war

 

[womanfish]

But the pentagon doesn't have control of what is shown on Iraqi TV or Al Jazeera, etc... so if Saddam wants to prove he's around definitively, then he could do so at any time.

 

[Klaus]

Womanfish:

you are right - he did this with being on TV shortly after US tried to kill him - didn't he?

Afik he even mentioned the time.
What do you expect? that he shows a newspaper from today to prove he's alive?
This would force him to continue that game (US officials says something and he has to prove them wrong)

Klaus

 

[hiphop]

Fact is, it doesn?t seem he?s dead or injured, and his sons are fine too. How come? Its two weeks since the U.S. have attacked.

 

[womanfish]

Interestingly, I saw an interview on CBS with a guy who used to be a double for one of the sons (I can't remember which one, just know it's the one they say is REALLY nasty, the younger one) and wow did they look alike. they made him get plastic surgery on his chin, and they took out his teeth, put in fake ones and worked on his jaw so he would have the same overbite.

He said in the interview that the man who made the public statement after the first airstrike to kill Saddam, was not Saddam, and even named the guy who he knew it was. He said Saddam has at least 4 doubles.

Anyway, hiphop, I don't say how you can state as fact that he and his sons are just fine, when no proof has been shown that they are. Another "statement from Saddam" came out today. Guess who made the statement - The Minister of Information.

I'm saying that at this point, Saddam it seems, would be highly visible, rallying his troops, being outspoken about their "victories", etc... But instead we get taped footage of him at a meeting with advisors?? It seems like a game being played by the VP and Min. of Info. to make it look like he is still in control.

Or he might be so paranoid that he is WAY down in a bunker and is scared to come out.

 

[hiphop]

Anyway, hiphop, I don't say how you can state as fact that he and his sons are just fine, when no proof has been shown that they are.

I said "Fact is it doesn?t seem", not "Fact is".

If he is dead, why doesn?t all the army throw a big freedom party for Iraqi cilvilians?

Plus, all his sons are really nasty, from what I?ve heard.

If you suspect he?s dead, I?d like to see proof for that, instead of unclear feelings one might hope for.

Oops, and I guess Osama?s still alive, too, haven?t seen his scalp on CNN.

 

[womanfish]

I know what you said. You said "Fact is, it doesn't seem that he is dead or injured and his sons are just fine too"

So you think that he and his sons are fine. I don't think they are. The Iraqi govt. has gone to great lengths to try and disprove any other rumor or intelligence sources that we have stated, yet this one they don't or can't.

They seem to try with the showing of taped meetings and statements from him made by other people, but that offers no real evidence. Just enough to keep fear in most Iraqis I suppose.

I would like to see proof he's dead or injured too, but that's not what my post is about, it's about my growing doubt that he is fully functioning because of the lame attempts by the Iraqi govt. to make it look like he is.

 

[hiphop]

If he and his sons are "not fully functioning", meaning the command structure is broken, the U.S. has reached one of its major goals. So I expect this war to be over in a week. Can I count on you?

 

[womanfish]

Again, no proof either way. Again, point of my post is that it makes me doubt what's going on with him, not that I know for sure. And IMO, if other top Iraqi officials (ie. VP, Ministry of Info.) weren't covering for him, and the Iraqi people knew he was gone (not just injured, but GONE) then, yes I think the current state of the war would change dramatically.

 

[Klaus]

IHe said in the interview that the man who made the public statement after the first airstrike to kill Saddam, was not Saddam, and even named the guy who he knew it was. He said Saddam has at least 4 doubles.

Saddam has lots of doubles - i'm not sure about the number but there are some things you can't change with plastic surgery and german crime-experts said it's 99% sure that the Saddam on TV is the real Saddam.
And because of what he said and how he said it they said that it's likely that he said it after the attack

Klaus

 

[womanfish]

I would probably go with the word of someone who actually lived and worked in the presence of the man in question for almost a decade over crime-experts, but I admit, I'm still skeptical on both sides.

What strikes me as odd is that he NEVER has said anything like, "we captured 5 POW's yesterday" or "the great warriors in Basrah shot down 2 helicopters today in their valiant fight against the aggressors", etc... you know what I mean?

It's always, "Keep up the fight" "Trust in God" "Defeat the Invaders", blah, blah, blah - very generic stuff. Or silent videos of meetings with other Iraqi officials.

 

[Klaus]

womanfish:

Well maybe this guy is right, maybe he tells the TV station what they want to hear because he gets some bucks.

and afik he mentioned the time in the first interview which was aired (the one with the papers and the weired looking saddam)

So it seems to me (and i have no proof for that) US officials use the same tactics like they used before the war. Not a single proof but instead a bunch of lies and weak arguments - everyone can pick his favourite. If they find out that one thing was a lie the "officials" have 4 new "proofs"

Klaus

 

[hiphop]

And where?s the nukes?

I told you there were no nukes! I don?t hear a word about that in American mass media, they?re not even asking about disarming, this argument is Poooof! gone. It would be funny to watch the propaganda concepts, if it wasn?t such a tragic war.

 

[Klaus]

whenhiphopdrovethebigcars:
I'm sure they will find some .. even if they have to put them there theirself - just give them the time to do so ;(

Klaus

 

[womanfish]

nukes? what the hell are you talking about? You mean chem and Bio weapons. well, funny thing. They're busy fighting a war, so the looking around for weapons might need to come later.

I'm sure the thousands of Iraqi chemical suits, gas masks and chem agent antidotes are there for no reason.

And klaus, how is the U.S. lying? They just simply state that neither Saddam, nor his sons have been seen in a live setting, or a reputable video after the initial attacks.

AFIK, he didn't mention the time in his first appearance. And again, this may not have even been him! I mean it looks like he's wearing a Groucho Marx costume or something.

 

[hiphop]

Yah yah, chem and bio weapons, but you know, originally everyone was talking about nukes, don?t forget that. Or do you think Saddam could have attacked the US with chemaical and biological weapons (not the terrorist stuff now pls)? The argument for the so-called "pre-emptive self defense" (what a lovely twisted tongue, I didn?t see much defense of American territory in the last two weeks) was about nukes.

 

[Klaus]

Womanfish:
I was referencing to faked "proofs" of the US / GB team while trying to convince the other members of the UN security council. I was referencing to the new "specialists" who were necessary because the secret service / the cia dissagreed with the opinion of the politicians and didn't tell what the politicans wanted to hear.

For the reliability of the warpics it's even harder to decide what's a fake and what not. But at least i was surprised that we got pictures of a US military looking for peaces of a forbidden long-range iraqi missile with probably a chemical warhead and they weren't even wearing gasmasks.

For the Gasmasks on the iraqi there can be various reasons:
Either they need it to throw chemical weapons at the US fighters (but i'm unsure if you send your troops that close to the area where you want to drop your chemical weapons) or because you are affraid of cemical weapons of your oponent.
And in this case it dosn't have to be a deadly weapon, there are other chemical weapons (we saw at the terroristic act in russia last year) which simply knock out (well with a little colateral damage) your oponent. If Saddam think that G.W.B.might use them new gasmasks are the logic consequence.
I'm sure i missed a lots of other posibilities here too - but buying gasmasks for your troops is no prove from my point of view.

Klaus

 

[womanfish]

well other than the fact that the U.S. and Britain won't use Chem. or Bio. weapons, so the gas masks aren't necessary. They may have them for attack from some other neighboring nation, but it still seems unlikely. Common sense tells me they are preparing for using Chem. or Bio. weapons on Coalition troops.

 

[Klaus]

womanfish:
Do you think the US government won't use Chemical Weapons? Why do they produce them? There are more fun-to-do things if the government think they have to much money. Why are they against international bans of these weapon systems?

Anyway do you think it's wrong to use non-deadly chemical weapons when trying to conquer Bagdad?

Klaus

 

[diamond]

I think Womanfish is kicking both of your asses qwite handedly.

thank
u
diamond