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Old 06-30-2008, 04:43 PM   #21
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Why am I comparing them? Because this is what the candidates are discussing. Mr. Obama is saying "NO, WE CAN'T!" to many different options. Drilling offshore, clean coal, nuclear power, etc. "NO, WE CAN'T!"

do you really think the options you enumerated above are remotely as good as solar, wind, and electric power? it seems that Mr. Obama has a vastly more long-sighted energy policy that hasn't been written by Big Oil, as contrasted to, say, Mr. Cheney. the greatest error of the 21st century has been this administration's move to establish a quasi-American empire in the middle of Mesopotamia in order to "secure" middle eastern oil and continue our heroin like dependence on this product. $100bn a year invested in the above industries -- taking your free market approach, too, something which a measly $300m science fair prize has little to do with -- would have done much better investment in this country's future security.



[q]Mr. Obama is saying "YES, WE CAN!" to delivering subsidies which inevitably go to rich multinational corporations in the Midwest, to grow corn. To run our vehicles rather than to feed us. "YES, WE CAN!" to coercing auto companies into increased fuel mileage standards, while the free market and consumers are already responding to this issue much earlier than Mr. Obama.[/q]


could you unpack this? it strikes me as quite contradictory at the moment.


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"YES, WE CAN!" to punititive taxes on energy companies, who provide us with a vital resource, and operate in a world oil market, including booming economies like China and India. While other American industries are earning much higher profit margins than energy companies, we should levy additional taxes on big oil? Shouldn't we encourage more exploration, more innovation, more anything that would keep this economy moving?

should we continue to give our oil company billions upon billions of tax breaks? should we start more wars on their behalf? is it alright with you that oil companies spend upwards of $400m lobbying Congress to pass energy legislation that's good for earth raping oil? while i might agree with you on a the uselessness of a windfall tax, it seems that these welfare queen companies don't need quite as much assistance as they get.

just imagine what wind could do with $15bn in tax incentives per year.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:03 PM   #22
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Subsidizing corn to run our SUVs, rather than to feed the country? Has he been to the grocery store lately $$$$$ ? McCain does not support these subsidies or the shameless pandering to the Midwest.
What does this have to do with grocery costs? Grocery costs are raising due to fuel costs and the cracking down on illegal labor. And it's not just the Midwest, it's farmers from all over. Farmers are changing their crops, mostly due to the fact that they have a guaranteed price with corn, but most of what they are exchanging is cotton(at least here in Texas).

Technology with ethanol is changing as well, now they believe they can use the stalk and husk for fuel and save the corn for food. If this is the case, conservatives are going to have even less to complain about...
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:16 PM   #23
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About 5% of the world's corn supply goes to producing bio fuels - representing a whopping three years of growth in typical crop production, according to Elam.

"Corn will have to go to at least $8 a bushel to squeeze out enough food use to keep up with corn for ethanol," he said. "Food prices will be significantly impacted by corn if RFS goes to 10.5 billion gallons for 2009."

How significantly? Collins said food costs could rise 23% to 35% above the normal annual inflation rate of 2.5% over the next two to three years if the RFS mandates are not reduced. Elam said food price inflation rate could go as high as 7% without a mandate reduction.

The USDA also maintains ethanol has an impact on food prices, even if it is an indirect link.

"Higher ethanol production definitely and directly raises the price of corn," said USDA economist Ephraim Leibtag. "Higher corn prices have an impact on food prices on the retail level."

By contrast, if the government were to reduce the RFS by just half, both Elam and Collins agree that corn prices would fall $2 a bushel, which could save more than $9 billion in feed and food costs.
Here is the article Ethanol eyed as culprit in food price spike - Jun. 27, 2008


You Obama people - wake and smell the corn syrup.

This week I am about 55% leaning to voting for McCain. I can say those Bush tax cuts he supports are bullshit, I know in a Democratic Congress, they will expire. Good riddance.


Can't you Obama people at least say his energy policies (as thin as they are) are not all good.

Especially leaning and relying so much on corn / ethanol.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:24 PM   #24
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Can't you Obama people at least say his energy policies (as thin as they are) are not all good.
my.barackobama.com | New Energy for America


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He wants to expand domestic oil exploration to the outer continental shelf.
You might have to wait 10 years to see the first drop of oil from there - offshore drilling is sloooow.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #25
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I am deeply concerned by one of the above posts, you have to put your hope in change you can believe in with faith.

Hydrocarbons are going to be used for decades to come, the environmental footprint has to be reduced and carbon dioxide already in the atmosphere needs to be put into some sink. As worrying as the monopoly on energy would be I really like Craig Venter speculative biological solution of carbon fixing synthetic bacteria.
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Old 06-30-2008, 06:29 PM   #26
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I have looked at that

it does not say much
it is really silly


I was at about 53% leaning Obama a couple weeks back

then I started reading his website and listening to him and reading his speeches and remarks ( I thought I should go straight to the source )
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:00 PM   #27
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Here is the article Ethanol eyed as culprit in food price spike - Jun. 27, 2008


You Obama people - wake and smell the corn syrup.
There's some interesting math happening in that article. Only 5% of the world's corn is used and it is somehow making everyone pay more? Especially since the production of corn has risen.

That being said, I don't think Ethanol is the way to go unless these new break throughs are true. But it's a much much better alternative than offshore drilling.
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:10 PM   #28
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just imagine what wind could do with $15bn in tax incentives per year.

Guess which democrat and Obama supporter does not support the windmills being put up in MA?

Ahhh its all water under the bridge.
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:14 PM   #29
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Going back and rereading it, there are some good things in Obama's plan.

And with a Democratic Congress those things should pass.

Is Obama against Offshore Drilling?



from his website \/
Quote:
The Next 10 Years of Oil

3 million barrels of oil savings.

Plan will reduce U.S. oil consumption by about 3 million barrels of oil per day by 2018.

Supports new development on existing leases, which could nearly double total U.S. oil production, and increase natural gas production by 75 percent.
or just new leases.

There are plenty of off shore leases that can still be developed, does he want it doubled?
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Old 06-30-2008, 07:17 PM   #30
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Guess which democrat and Obama supporter does not support the windmills being put up in MA?

Ahhh its all water under the bridge.
A good portion of his base

will fight wind mills

turns birds into turkey burgers

they make noise pollution

and are ugly, when they are put out in the beautiful open spaces that we all cherish
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Old 06-30-2008, 08:30 PM   #31
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Jimmy Carter was ahead of his time. Read his speech from 1977 on his energy plan (American Experience | Jimmy Carter | Primary Sources). He was off by a few years, but he basically predicted what is happening now.

An excerpt:

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The fifth principle is that we must be fair. Our solutions must ask equal sacrifices from every region, every class of people, every interest group. Industry will have to do its part to conserve, just as the consumers will. The energy producers deserve fair treatment, but we will not let the oil companies profiteer.

The sixth principle, and the cornerstone of our policy, is to reduce the demand through conservation. Our emphasis on conservation is a clear difference between this plan and others which merely encouraged crash production efforts. Conservation is the quickest, cheapest, most practical source of energy. Conservation is the only way we can buy a barrel of oil for a few dollars. It costs about $13 to waste it.

The seventh principle is that prices should generally reflect the true replacement costs of energy. We are only cheating ourselves if we make energy artificially cheap and use more than we can really afford.

The eighth principle is that government policies must be predictable and certain. Both consumers and producers need policies they can count on so they can plan ahead. This is one reason I am working with the Congress to create a new Department of Energy, to replace more than 50 different agencies that now have some control over energy.

The ninth principle is that we must conserve the fuels that are scarcest and make the most of those that are more plentiful. We can't continue to use oil and gas for 75 percent of our consumption when they make up seven percent of our domestic reserves. We need to shift to plentiful coal while taking care to protect the environment, and to apply stricter safety standards to nuclear energy.

The tenth principle is that we must start now to develop the new, unconventional sources of energy we will rely on in the next century.
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Old 06-30-2008, 09:57 PM   #32
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I'm an Obama supporter.

I don't like ethanol as a solution to our energy woes.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:34 AM   #33
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Guess which democrat and Obama supporter does not support the windmills being put up in MA?

Ahhh its all water under the bridge.


Mary Jo? is that you?

are you going to tar Obama with that incident as well?
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:35 AM   #34
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and are ugly, when they are put out in the beautiful open spaces that we all cherish


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Old 07-01-2008, 12:15 PM   #35
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Anyone who thinks ethanol is a good alternative energy source needs to get his head checked. It's just as depleteable as oil!
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:31 PM   #36
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the greatest error of the 21st century has been this administration's move to establish a quasi-American empire in the middle of Mesopotamia in order to "secure" middle eastern oil and continue our heroin like dependence on this product.

should we continue to give our oil company billions upon billions of tax breaks? should we start more wars on their behalf? is it alright with you that oil companies spend upwards of $400m lobbying Congress to pass energy legislation that's good for earth raping oil? while i might agree with you on a the uselessness of a windfall tax, it seems that these welfare queen companies don't need quite as much assistance as they get.
First, the United States is not an empire nor has it established one or tried to establish one in Mesopotamia. The entire global economy is currently dependent on Persian Gulf oil and has been for decades. Keeping Persian Gulf Oil supply secure is not a mistake, but an absolute necessity if global society is to have any future, let alone be able to develop new sources of energy that are cheaper and more efficient than oil. You can't get there from here if you do not protect the current life line of the global economy. Every US administration since FDR has understood how vital the Persian Gulf is to the world. Even Jimmy Carter said he was ready to use nuclear weapons to defend Persian Gulf oil supply 30 years ago when the planet was less dependent on the region than it is today.

In addition, simply developing cheaper more efficient energy sources in the United Sates won't alone solve the world's energy needs and dependence on the Persian Gulf. This is a global problem with China and India's energy needs having a greater impact in the coming years on global energy supply than any other region or country. Even a country like Brazil that no longer imports oil and uses sugarcane based ethanol for much of its energy needs, would still be seriously impacted by a disruption of Persian Gulf Oil. Such a disruption would heavily impact the global economy which would of course heavily impact Brazil which has exports and imports that account for a significant percentage of its annual GDP. Global economic interdependence means that only a global change in energy usage(not just a national one) will have a significant impact on the security relevance of the Persian Gulf.
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:45 PM   #37
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Anyone who thinks ethanol is a good alternative energy source needs to get his head checked.
And why is that? I don't believe it's THE alternative energy source, but it is A good alternative.

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It's just as depleteable as oil!
Care to explain this one?
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #38
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Global economic interdependence means that only a global change in energy usage(not just a national one) will have a significant impact on the security relevance of the Persian Gulf.
Only thing is, while most developed countries have taken some steps to change energy usage, small and big ones, sometimes good, sometimes not, often not enough, but at least something, the US didn't really do that much to get less dependent on oil or change the consumption structure of the country.
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Old 07-01-2008, 05:51 PM   #39
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Mary Jo? is that you?

are you going to tar Obama with that incident as well?
Given the Kennedy family, at least the Massachusetts Kennedys, have made Obama since the endorsement, I think it fair to point out that Teddy and family have worked hard to prevent windmill farms from being planted. If the powerful family behind Obama is against it, I would hesitate to believe he will be effective at making it happen.

Why would I tar Obama, with Mary Jo. I do not even know how to respond to your implication. I guess I can crawl back into retirement.
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:11 PM   #40
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You got 'tar'

I got "kneepads for Bill Clinton"



maybe we can do a gift exchange?
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