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Old 09-23-2007, 07:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


I wasn't criticizing anyone who has kids at all. I was comparing "selfishnesses." I think it's a criminal waste of money to get fertility treatments that cost $30,000 to counter what nature gave you. I think the insane entitlement attitude we have in this country that produces people who will go to those lengths simply to have their own child is crazy. If one can't have kids, that's sad if one wanted them, but to spend and spend and spend simply to give birth is the height of "selfishness."
Attacking the exact opposite of unplanned pregnancy as a criminal waste of resources may make perfect sense in your mind but those sorts of attitudes shouldn't hold any coersive sway over people making choices about raising children. There is nothing at all unreasonable about wanting to raise a child with your genes, if those people have the means to afford IVF and go through all that strife just to have a child then that only makes them selfish in as much as wanting the best for their offspring.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:22 PM   #22
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Attacking the exact opposite of unplanned pregnancy as a criminal waste of resources may make perfect sense in your mind but those sorts of attitudes shouldn't hold any coersive sway over people making choices about raising children.
No, they shouldn't. You're right. As I've repeatedly stated, this is my private opinion, one I would not use to influence anyone.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:22 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Hinder
I suspect a lot of it comes from not looking my age. People assume I am on average, about 23.
Wow! I just turned 34 and I get a lot of "Oh, I thought you were in your 20s!" but I don't think anyone thinks I'm that young. Maybe that liquor store clerk the other week who looked long and hard at my ID.

My mom is great - she told me back in my 20s that she knows better than to start asking about grandchildren.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Agreed 100%





I was saying it's self-centered in the context of giving someone shit about not having kids. I personally do think it's incredibly self-centered to spend a ton of money to simply have a baby that looks like you. I would never ever say that to anyone who has done it, and I would never in a bazillion years ever try to legislate it, but I do think it's the height of selfishness in a world with children waiting for good homes and children starving to death.
Not being in a position to understand the biological / physiological urge of a woman when sh ewants to have a child, i would never criticize anyone who feel sthat way.

I fought tooth and nail with my wife over having a 3rd, all the logic in the world about our home size, our finances, etc couldn't sway her one iota. I wouldn't change a thing now that we have him. But i guess my point is that i believe when the "urge" kicks in it can be pretty unstoppable, so i wouldn't be so presumptious as to talk anyone out of it as I'm not in their shoes.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:29 PM   #25
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Originally posted by toscano
so i wouldn't be so presumptious as to talk anyone out of it as I'm not in their shoes.
Neither would I.

Yet I can still have the belief that it's inherently wrong to spend a small fortune just to get pregnant.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:48 PM   #26
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Originally posted by martha


They can adopt. Hell , they can adopt all the babies you guys want to save.
Ooohhhh "you guys"....

Ya know, you do not know me or my beliefs....

I will defend their right to their beliefs just as I would defend your right to yours with them.



You guys...lol
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:50 PM   #27
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Do you (any of you) feel that the state should fund IVF? That's an interesting debate that's going on in several countries at the moment.
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Old 09-23-2007, 07:53 PM   #28
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No, I do not.

This is where I feel the argument, the cards you were delt, is applicable.

If people are using their own insurance to get pregnant, fine. Tax $$ should not be used for this.
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Old 09-23-2007, 08:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I respect people who don't think they would make great parents or who are just not interested in children and never have been, openly stating so rather than giving in to the pressure.

I never had much interest in having a biological child. I'm not closed off to the idea, but I'd rather adopt, and no, I don't need a shiny newborn either. My grandmother's brother was adopted decades ago when it was much more rare, and so nobody in our family has ever thought of it as "different" than having a biological child.
And that is the way it is in my family. I cannot say that anyone ever even brought it up more than once in my 39 years.

I love my family.
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Old 09-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Do you (any of you) feel that the state should fund IVF?
No, I don't.
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Old 09-23-2007, 09:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
I was saying it's self-centered in the context of giving someone shit about not having kids. I personally do think it's incredibly self-centered to spend a ton of money to simply have a baby that looks like you. I would never ever say that to anyone who has done it, and I would never in a bazillion years ever try to legislate it, but I do think it's the height of selfishness in a world with children waiting for good homes and children starving to death.


it's weird -- my head totally agrees with you. totally.

but there's something deep inside me that is curious about what "my" child would look, sound, and act like. is this rational? no, not necessarily. but i think it's human. and i'm someone who'll probably have to spend $30K to either adopt or go the surrogate route, so if i'm spending the same amount of money either way, what's the difference? i'm ultimately not any different than an infertile couple, and adoption costs are astronomical.

(and i mean that as an actual question, this is something i ponder late at night)
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Old 09-23-2007, 10:27 PM   #32
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Not sure what the "debate" referred to in the thread title is supposed to be over...?
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Old 09-23-2007, 11:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Not sure what the "debate" referred to in the thread title is supposed to be over...?
It seems like a personal decision made into a personal debate by societal pressures.

I think it's about the pressure held over some people by families, friends, peer groups, if they have yet to have kids by, say the age of 30. That's maybe what she meant?

I'm 32 and don't plan on having kids for several reasons, mostly I'm not entirely 'sold' on this world we live in. Perhaps having a child would be the only way to enlighten myself and gain those perspectives that would then in turn help me gain hope for the future mankind, ah, delicious irony!
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:33 AM   #34
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Really wanting a child of "your own" is not soley the province of a woman. Men can have such feelings to. I know I do (and I would have never guessed I would feel it so strongly when I was younger).

I don't think it's necessary to judge people so harshly in any direction when it comes to having children. Usually harsh judgements are made from a position of strength (i.e. "I don't feel that way, I couldn't imagine that ever feeling that way, and so for you to feel that way/to do that etc is just inherently wrong.") I suppose if someone is saying "I couldn't have children and it was agonizing and horrible, but I knew the unselfish thing to do was to adopt so I put my desires aside and refused to spend the money on IVF and adopted instead" well, I suppose the argument carries more weight.

Someone could make the argument that every couple should adopt a child (or two) and to choose to be totally childless is "selfish" when so many children need a home. I wouldn't be the one to make that argument though, because again, I don't think it's necessary to be so harsh.

Or "I also said I didn't want children and now I want them so badly and it's too late for me so you shouldn't be so hasty and saying you don't want kids". I think that argument has weight too. But to say, with your brood of kids, "Oh, you'll change your mind" is just condescending.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:15 AM   #35
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Everyone is entitled to a choice.

Fertility treatments are fantastic for those who have the desire for a biological child. Adoption is a great way to help a child and fulfil your desire for a child.

Some people want kids and some don't. Some people want long hair and some short. It's just something that you know.

If others judge then it's their problem not yours. It is hard being asked the baby question but it's really no-one else's business.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:04 AM   #36
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I think having a child or children in an attempt to "have someone to love me" or to fulfill one's political/career/etc. aspirations is incredibly selfish because then it's not about the child/children, but about you. Otherwise I think wanting children is a pretty normal desire for many people -- it seems to be a built in urge for most -- and I don't think most people's motives for having children are inherently selfish.

I'm not going to have any children, but I think if I did want one (or more) I would go the adoption route because having a child which "looks like me" or is biologically mine isn't a big thing for me. And pregnancy and childbirth certainly hold no great attraction for me either. But what works for me isn't necessarily going to work for anyone else and that's just fine.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:30 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


If someone wants their own child it's their prerogative, and who are you or I to say if it's self-centred and how they should spend their money ?
I agree with all your posts on this.

Every single person makes a personal choice about having kids or not. Maybe one day all of us will respect all the single choices we all make.

It seemed to me that Martha respects people's rights to choose IVF, still, despite it being something she disagrees with. And that's something.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:42 AM   #38
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I think people need to mind their own business.

People ask me ALL the time, like maybe once a week. I don't really have an answer b/c....fuck, I DONT KNOW!! I'm not going to say "Oh I'm NEVER having kids!!!" b/c I don't know that. I know I'm not having kids right now. Maybe in three years when I have a house and some more time a space we will reconsider. But heck, that's something that WE will decide WHEN we feel it's appropriate so for now when people ask about kids I tell them they are welcome to come let my dog out over the holidays if they are THAT bored and into other people's personal lives.

ETA: I have no qualms about adoption, but at this point there's no way we could afford it, even with the adoption credits I'd get from my employer.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:16 AM   #39
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i find it amusing when people i hardly know are more concerned about what is going on (or not) with my ovaries than i am.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:07 PM   #40
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It seemed to me that Martha respects people's rights to choose IVF, still, despite it being something she disagrees with.
Yep.
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