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Old 10-24-2007, 09:27 PM   #81
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My English teacher in my freshmen year of high school was a very Irish Catholic type, you know, from real close to Philly, went to Catholic school and all. He then went to college in North Carolina, and he said he always had his Baptist roommates lecturing him on how his religion was misguided and incorrect compared to theirs.

I personally haven't spent enough time in the south to have that kind of experience, but being that he's from the same upbringing as I am, from the same town, same type of family, I'd assume that I'd get the same thing down there.
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Old 10-24-2007, 09:29 PM   #82
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We've had two former FYMers that expressed this very line of "logic" as well... at least that I can recall.
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Old 10-25-2007, 05:49 AM   #83
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I dismissed the courses too lightly, having a lifelong aversion to domestic stuff. I agree that it is a matter of choice and as yolland noted that there are required courses that might more strictly be called academic, though I'd have to see the syllabus.

In the church I grew up in, I found quite a few women believing that leadership is not a proper role for women in the church (and I've found them extending that to the outside world) I was always amused by (and one of the reasons I left the church) that when searching for someone to put on the board, they had to choose a infamous church adulterer--he'd sit with his mistress in the one section of pews while his wife sat in the other (after first offering it to an 18 year old who declined it) rather than offer it to any woman in the church.

It surprised me how many of the men in the church didn't have any problem with women leadership (although there was no revolution or even question of changing the rules to allow women on the board. There were not any women ministers in the denomination then, I assume it is the same now.) My parents in point. My father is a staunch conservative, who has no problems with women ministers, women priests, women leaders (as long as it's not Hilary). My mother's uncomfortable with women in leadership positions. My father admires women athletes as much as male ones and watches women's golf, women's basketball. (Although if I ran for office, I think she'd vote for me as a good parent. My father might or might not, but that would be on purely political grounds which would be perfectly fine for me and a cause for shared amusement)

The women were bright and funny and didn't seem Stepfordy. I noticed judgment when things stepped outside of the norm, but I notice that everywhere. They didn't seem bitter or resentful or self-limited. They just weren't really interested in the other stuff--the "men's" stuff. Sometimes I found them ill-equipped to deal with outside things, a little too quick to believe whatever was said even outside of religion, a little too sheltered. But they were wonderfully kind for the most part. But I could see problems with the women who were made for something different. I didn't see any difference in, say, levels and occurence depression, but I saw difference in the manifestations of depression. It seemed to me even young that that particular fit didn't suit all women. It didn't suit me. I left with no rancor on any side.

I don't remember must gender role pressing, though. There just seemed to be a fall into it. The sermons didn't linger on it. Although there was certainly praise for homemakers, there was no push. I got along well with the ministers. Mouthy me was a favorite. Probably because they knew I was actually listening to what they were saying and discussing it with them. I found when there was a push, it was most often the women doing the pushing, although it was mild enough. I was always welcome.
Although I didn't stay, I have fond memories of it. I rarely (though with one or two members who left the church anyway) found much ugliness in the message.

I didn't want to impose that particular limitation on myself, though I certainly placed other limitations on myself later on for a variety of reasons that I can't blame any church for.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:45 AM   #84
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It doesn't rule those things out and it's not inconceivable, but the impression I get from that article is that it is so lopsided and the women are doing all the sacrificing and the compromising. Nothing about it seems mutual to me, but of course it could be the slant of the article.

I think it may very much be about the slant of the article. As Yolland already pointed out there is definitely a mean-spirited tone about the article. It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:53 AM   #85
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At least where I grew up (which was mostly Southern Baptist or S.B.-Convention-aligned Baptist), Catholics were definitely seen as in need of evangelizing, i.e. not "saved." I don't know how pervasive or current that particular view is.
Well, my church is doing an evangelistic series right now in one of the villages on our island. And Saipan is 95% Catholic.



The idea that "my denomination is the right one" is not exactly unique though. In fact, I'd suspect most people essentially feel this way about whatever their theological beliefs are (or lack thereof). Ask any of the parents of my Catholic students that want to become Seventh-day Adventists (and have been told they cannot). . .

I do think though that when people make it an issue of who is "saved" or not, that it is wrong. I may believe that my particular understanding of faith is "correct" without having to in turn believe that everyone who differs in their understanding is doomed to hell. And I think it is sad when people are not free to follow their convictions about what they think is true and right for them.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:03 AM   #86
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It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
This happens many many times in FYM.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:54 AM   #87
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Originally posted by maycocksean

I think it may very much be about the slant of the article. As Yolland already pointed out there is definitely a mean-spirited tone about the article. It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
Well even if that's true, I posted the article merely as a jumping off point for a discussion about women in the context of this type of religious belief or even holding certain beliefs outside the context of religion. As has already been mentioned, it's not as if similar thoughts have never been expressed in FYM before.
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Old 10-26-2007, 01:12 AM   #88
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Well, my church is doing an evangelistic series right now in one of the villages on our island. And Saipan is 95% Catholic.



The idea that "my denomination is the right one" is not exactly unique though. In fact, I'd suspect most people essentially feel this way about whatever their theological beliefs are (or lack thereof). Ask any of the parents of my Catholic students that want to become Seventh-day Adventists (and have been told they cannot). . .
I would have to say I never personally saw any evangelizing in the opposite direction (i.e. by Catholics to Baptists), nor have I ever personally had Catholics "evangelize" to me (unless you count required religion courses in Catholic schools, which I guess you could, depending on whether or not the school primarily serves an existing Catholic population). Perhaps it's different elsewhere--obviously at one time it was, or Saipan wouldn't be 95% Catholic in the first place (I imagine "evangelizing" would be at best a polite way to describe how that happened, though).
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:06 AM   #89
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
My English teacher in my freshmen year of high school was a very Irish Catholic type, you know, from real close to Philly, went to Catholic school and all. He then went to college in North Carolina, and he said he always had his Baptist roommates lecturing him on how his religion was misguided and incorrect compared to theirs.

I personally haven't spent enough time in the south to have that kind of experience, but being that he's from the same upbringing as I am, from the same town, same type of family, I'd assume that I'd get the same thing down there.
From my personal experience, all Baptists are the same as what you've described. No offense to any Baptists on this forum, btw.
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:28 AM   #90
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But I could see problems with the women who were made for something different. I didn't see any difference in, say, levels and occurence depression, but I saw difference in the manifestations of depression. It seemed to me even young that that particular fit didn't suit all women. It didn't suit me.
Do you mean homemaker expectations, no-women-in-religious-leadership expectations, or both? Not allowing women to be rabbis was certainly one of my major gripes with Orthodoxy (though it's not precisely analogous since rabbis, especially in Orthodoxy, are primarily charged with ruling on legal matters, not 'pastoral' duties). Most of the women in the (Orthodox) community I grew up with did work outside the home (although my own mother didn't), and I would guess that's the case in most Orthodox communities, though obviously not among the ultra-Orthodox. It wasn't a doctrinal issue though, there was no bar of that sort. Really I have to imagine it's not feasible for any denomination today (Christian, Jewish, whatever), unless it's a tiny one, to aggressively promote 'women belong in the home' as an 'ideal'--ethical considerations aside, it's just not economically realistic for most families, even if that were what they wanted to do.

I'm sure we've all known at least a few women, both religious and nonreligious, who were deeply unhappy being homemakers and more or less felt they'd been forced into it (often overlapping with unhappy marriages, which can make it sort of chicken-or-egg), though happily that's much less common than it used to be. But there comes a point where you have to hold people accountable as individuals for their own choices and the results of them--I guess where it gets sticky is trying to pin down precisely where that point is.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:39 AM   #91
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Well, my church is doing an evangelistic series right now in one of the villages on our island. And Saipan is 95% Catholic.



See this is what I don't get. Not a knock on you, Sean, but it's one of the things that's always really bothered me about evangelicals. It's one thing to go spread the gospel among peoples who haven't heard of it or who haven't had the opportunity, due to geography or culture or whatever factor to really gain exposure to it. But when somebody is already a practicing religious person, who is a missionary to step in and try to convert? I guess I could comprehend it to an extent with different religions but when you're converting between dominations of the same religion, honestly that really reeks to me of something distasteful.
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:24 AM   #92
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See this is what I don't get. Not a knock on you, Sean, but it's one of the things that's always really bothered me about evangelicals. It's one thing to go spread the gospel among peoples who haven't heard of it or who haven't had the opportunity, due to geography or culture or whatever factor to really gain exposure to it. But when somebody is already a practicing religious person, who is a missionary to step in and try to convert? I guess I could comprehend it to an extent with different religions but when you're converting between dominations of the same religion, honestly that really reeks to me of something distasteful.
Knock a way. Believe me, you have no idea how conflicted I am about this whole evangelistic series. . .and evangelistic series in general.

Still, I don't think there's really much of a qualitative difference between spreading the gospel among those who have not been exposed to it and spreading a "version" of the gospel, if you will, to those who have already heard it. In any case you're still trying to get them to abandon whatever it was they previously believed. I think a lot of it has to do with what you think you're accomplishing from "evangelizing." While I personally don't think it's my business to be deciding who's hellbent and who it's my business to save (and I really don't buy that idea that you get "saved" based on your assent to a certain set of doctrines), I candidly admit that I'd like to "save" many of my fellow Christians from their belief in everlasting torment in hell, because I just really think it's really sad and wrong that people believe a loving, just God would do such a thing. So in a sense like that, yes, I would feel comfortable "evangelizing" to my fellow believers.

Finally, at least for me personally, I wouldn't feel a need to "save" another religious person. However, even though Saipan is 95% Catholic, Catholicism here is often largely a merely cultural construct with little deep spiritual meaning for many of it's practitioners (though this certainly not true of all of the Catholics. Most of the Catholics I know well are quite devout and deeply spiritual). There are many people who while "Catholic" aren't actually religious at all and for them I think it's fair to share the gospel with them. At least as fair as sharing it with anyone else. . .

I'm not really a big fan of overt proselytizing, though I suppose it's has it's place.
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:33 AM   #93
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I guess if you believe that you really have something 'different and positive' to offer, you try and offer it.

If it's done with a genuine, loving, "I have a gift that is good, for your consideration" kind of approach, most people should not be offended by it.

But to often it's -- Here comes the AMWAY salesmen, again.!!!!
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Old 10-26-2007, 09:09 AM   #94
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But to often it's -- Here comes the AMWAY salesmen, again.!!!!
Tell me about it. . .

The one thing I dislike the most about a lot of evangelistic efforts is the disturbing similarities to sales that they take on.
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:57 AM   #95
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Do you mean homemaker expectations, no-women-in-religious-leadership expectations, or both? Not allowing women to be rabbis was certainly one of my major gripes with Orthodoxy (though it's not precisely analogous since rabbis, especially in Orthodoxy, are primarily charged with ruling on legal matters, not 'pastoral' duties.

No, I left the boundaries of the homemaker discussion because that was never going to be an issue for me so I didn't think much about it. I didn't pay too much attention to who was a homemaker and who wasn't. It was more the women should not instruct men sort of thing or not have authority. (Or as in 1 Corinthians 14, be silent in the church. Of course, most churches rightly and smartly blow that one off) I watched the attitude often extend beyond the confines of the church and watched a sometimes unhealthy deference. I have no problem with some deference. I defer to people all the time, men and women. I just could not imagine deferring to someone purely because of gender, nor could I imagine being limited purely because of gender. Limiting by gender wastes an awful lot of talent.

Suffice it to say, I wasn't a huge fan of Paul.
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Old 10-26-2007, 12:23 PM   #96
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I guess if you believe that you really have something 'different and positive' to offer, you try and offer it.

If it's done with a genuine, loving, "I have a gift that is good, for your consideration" kind of approach, most people should not be offended by it.

But to often it's -- Here comes the AMWAY salesmen, again.!!!!


i just find evangelizing to be really rude.

what if i were compelled to tell each evangelical person i meet that God doesn't exist just so i feel better about myself?

i get the point of it, and i understand where the impulse comes from, but to many people, a blissful look and rhapsodizing about what the Holy Spirit does for you looks little different to me than when Paula Deen tastes one of her super-buttery rich desserts and makes her "O" face and says, "you know what, y'all? you've GOT to try this."
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Old 10-26-2007, 12:35 PM   #97
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i get the point of it, and i understand where the impulse comes from, but to many people, a blissful look and rhapsodizing about what the Holy Spirit does for you looks little different to me than when Paula Deen tastes one of her super-buttery rich desserts and makes her "O" face and says, "you know what, y'all? you've GOT to try this."
Quit evangelizing to me, you food pusher! I've chosen the weight watchers religion.

Seriously though, my boyfriend and I were talking about this last night. We were at an event sponsored by our school where they focus on the different faith traditions of a different geographic region each week and students share a bit about their religions. One person had shared about Buddhism in Thailand and during the Q&A portion she was almost getting grilled by the Christian students who intentionally or not were actually very rude in their questions and condescending in their quasi-evangelistic way of "giving their opinion". It made me really uncomfortable. Afterwards, my bf and I were talking about the idea of letting people believe what they believe and being respectful of one another. I have to give him credit for patience. Goodness knows, my parents try to "save" him from his Muslim ways when they get the chance and he's always been very gracious about it.
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:29 PM   #98
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she was almost getting grilled by the Christian students who intentionally or not were actually very rude in their questions and condescending in their quasi-evangelistic way of "giving their opinion".
If they only had any idea of the damage this really does to their religion...
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Old 10-27-2007, 02:30 AM   #99
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Suffice it to say, I wasn't a huge fan of Paul.
heh. Me neither.

Granted he penned several of my favorite scriptures, but I always got the sense he would have annoyed me a bit if I'd met him in person. And I found his views on marriage and on women to be, well, off-putting.
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Old 10-27-2007, 02:50 AM   #100
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i just find evangelizing to be really rude.
**sigh** I know. I tend to feel the same way, especially the real aggressive door to door kind. . .And the funny thing is, I feel like often times, especially among the rank and file church members that are hauled out into the streets (and church leaders like myself that just quietly avoid those types of ministry in favor others) during a big evangelistic event like the one our church has going now, is that there's a serious violation of the Golden Rule happening here. None of us want someone else showing up at our doors--my wife was annoyed just to find a tract by another denomination left under our door--and yet that's exactly what we do to others?

But I suppose the argument may be made that there may be people out there who actually are dissatisfied with whatever current spiritual path they are on and are "waiting" for someone to show up at the door . . .I just don't happen to want to be the one wading through a bunch of awkward "no's" to find that one person (the AMWAY analogy is really apt here). I think too, the fact that I don't necessarily presume that anyone who doesn't believe as I do won't be going to heaven takes away a lot of the motivation that other church members feel (and are encouraged to feel).

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
what if i were compelled to tell each evangelical person i meet that God doesn't exist just so i feel better about myself?
Hmmm. . . well, it wouldn't bother me. . .but then I'm one of those weirdos that LIKE to debate and discuss religious points of view. (THat's why I'm always on FYM! ). I actually spent a couple of weeks "studying" with the Mormon missionaries that came to my door some years back, not because I felt a need to be polite but because I enjoyed it (and didn't feel threatened by their making their "pitch" so to speak). But I realize I'm unusual (particularly unusual in that I don't mind people coming to my door but hate going to the doors of others) in that regard.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i get the point of it, and i understand where the impulse comes from, but to many people, a blissful look and rhapsodizing about what the Holy Spirit does for you looks little different to me than when Paula Deen tastes one of her super-buttery rich desserts and makes her "O" face and says, "you know what, y'all? you've GOT to try this."
I probably feel more like Paula Deen does. . .Many of my fellow Christians--in and out of my denomination--think more along the lines that "you've GOT to try this or you're going to literally die. " That's really hard for people outside of the faith to understand sometimes that for many Christians their faith is not so much about a super-delicious dessert and more about a life saving medicine. If you really think that people are going to die (or worse go to some place of eternal torment) on your watch, if you've got any kind of compassion, it can be quite motivating. After all, is it really any more rude than warning people about the consequences of say, global warming?

In any case, I'm personally not convinced that's how salvation works so I think it kills a lot of that kind of motivation for me. However, the dessert is pretty darn good. . .IMHO. . .
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