The Gay Thread

[phanan]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Memphis and I are now, officially, married.

It was emotionally overwhelming. I am so grateful.


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[DaveC]

This thread is so much gayer now, it's awesome


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[Diemen]

Having seen you argue here so passionately and eloquently (and patiently - I don't know if I'd be able to weather people telling me I didn't deserve equal treatment as gracefully as you have) for your own rights over the years, it's really awesome to see you able to enjoy them, Irvine.

Marriage is great - many happy years to you both!

[Irvine511]

While FYM had nothing to do with my actual decision to get married (we'll be a couple 10 years this summer) having the space to work out and create cogent arguments for my own legal equality -- and how persuasive the arguments simply were, that's why we've won -- gave me a glimmer of hope that, yes, this might one day be possible. That gay relationships can have real structure, meaning, and purpose, and that, yes, you are worth recognizing and celebrating. Having posted in here since early 2004, the year W used SSM to tip the scales in Ohio, it's been thrilling to watch our breathtaking progress, both in the US and around the world. And in the end, for all the long posts I've written, the lasting argument is the simplest: love is love. Most people want and need to create a family, and to legally give themselves "backup" -- a first-responder, if you will -- and also to be the same for someone else. We all want somebody to love. And we go from there.

It's all so simple. What were we ever worried about?


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[Diemen]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's all so simple. What were we ever worried about?

[Galeongirl]

You have such a great way of explaining it, way better than I ever could.

[trojanchick99]

Congrats!

I will never understand how people can be opposed to two people who love each other wanting to affirm that love and create a stable family.


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[cobl04]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's all so simple. What were we ever worried about?

[BoMac]

What is wrong with some people? How is this not illegal?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...irth/23640315/

[BVS]

That goes against everything in the oath this doctor should have taken.

Shitty doctor, shitty human being...


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[Diemen]

Originally Posted by BVS

Shitty doctor, shitty human being...

Stay classy.

It should go without saying that one specific belief you find odious doesn't automatically make a person a shitty human being.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Stay classy.



It should go without saying that one specific belief you find odious doesn't automatically make a person a shitty human being.

I'm not commenting on one's belief. I'm commenting on their denial of care to an innocent human being and their complete ignoring of their profession's oath.


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[bono_212]

I got in a huge stupid Facebook debate with someone about this yesterday.

Apparently since the child want being denied care, but treatment (she wasn't sick, just looking for a pediatrician), it's not illegal.

As others I spoke with said, it's honestly better to NOT see this doctor anyways, because you need to be able to have a good relationship with your pediatrician, but it's also good that they told their story so others can avoid the doctor as well.

The doctor never should have handled it so shittily in the first place. Not saying anything, not showing up, etc. It's pathetic. If you're going to stand for what you believe in, go all the way with it instead of being a coward.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Stay classy.

It should go without saying that one specific belief you find odious doesn't automatically make a person a shitty human being.

I respect your posts a great deal, and almost always agree with them. You are a real voice of reason around here. However, I'm going to have to side with BVS on this one. I think that anyone who holds attitudes like this is a shitty human being, and showing tolerance for individuals like this is to the detriment of society. Especially in her position as a healer. She is not being asked to interact socially with this family - she is only being asked to treat their child in a professional manner. Saying she couldn't bond with the family, and using praying is a giant, disappointing, disgusting cop-out from someone who ought to know better.

[Diemen]

There's a difference between saying that what the doctor did was shitty, and then calling that doctor a shitty human being, though.

I'm certainly not denying that what she did was shitty, because it was incredibly so. But I don't think that's enough to render a verdict on her soul, as it were. Especially since this is the only thing we know about this person.

I think my stance on gay rights is pretty well known in FYM, but I think the tendency to simply tear down and insult those who hold opposing viewpoints is unhelpful and tiresome.

I have some close family members who share pretty similar beliefs as this pediatrician. I find those beliefs shitty and am disappointed they hold them, but they're more than just those beliefs and, on balance, are not shitty human beings, just misguided and indoctrinated.

[VintagePunk]

Originally Posted by Diemen

There's a difference between saying that what the doctor did was shitty, and then calling that doctor a shitty human being, though.

I'm certainly not denying that what she did was shitty, because it was incredibly so. But I don't think that's enough to render a verdict on her soul, as it were. Especially since this is the only thing we know about this person.

I think my stance on gay rights is pretty well known in FYM, but I think the tendency to simply tear down and insult those who hold opposing viewpoints is unhelpful and tiresome.

I have some close family members who share pretty similar beliefs as this pediatrician. I find those beliefs shitty and am disappointed they hold them, but they're more than just those beliefs and, on balance, are not shitty human beings, just misguided and indoctrinated.

Thanks for your response. I understand where you're coming from, but I do not agree. I used to try to look at situations like this by giving the person the benefit of the doubt, and thinking that they are probably a decent person, but misguided. I've found though that the older I get, the less tolerance I have for people whose views are clearly wrong, and I don't feel like I need to do the mental gymnastics of categorizing people into good but misguided. If you discriminate against people who are homosexual, you're a bad person, period. Society has come far enough that this is not even up for debate.

FWIW, I have elderly relatives who are racist, grew up in a time when being racist was okay. I used to make excuses for them. Now, I just avoid them. They should know better.

Eta - and that is why I rarely post in here, these days, despite being quite active a few years ago. I realize that my attitude is not really conducive to discussion/debate.

[LemonMelon]

I'm siding with Diemen on this one. It's the ol' nature vs. nurture argument, I suppose; beyond this issue being simply one facet to the person, there's no shithead gene that makes one an inherently bad person (that I know of) and some people can change their views over time. Most don't, but some do. I've said some terribly misguided things about homosexuals on this board, things that I'm quite ashamed of today; I would like to think that I've grown beyond that and that others can as well, given the right set of circumstances.

I think to deem someone a "bad person" is to deny the plasticity of the human brain. And yeah, it's not terribly helpful to discourse here in FYM either, but I suppose that's not much of an issue as dissenting opinions have become so infrequent here.

[Galeongirl]

It's an absolute shitty move, but I do agree it doesn't make this doctor a shitty human being per se.

We could force people like this by law to treat the kid, but is that what we really want? I don't think this is the right path to take. It's incredibly sad that there are people who think like this, but if we're being real, we know there are. But we also know that punishing them isn't going to change their beliefs AND that there are now luckily plenty of people who start seeing gay people as normal human beings. So instead of punishing the ones refusing, perhaps we should just ignore them as their generation is going to die out eventually anyway, and focus on finding a good doctor for this baby that is in agreement with the parents' situation. That way the parents and doctor can develop a proper professional relationship, since that would not have been possible with this current doctor. I'm not justifying the behaviour at all, or saying we should ignore homophobic behaviour. Not at all. But I think that forcing people to do things against their beliefs makes us just as bad as refusing to do things for people because of your beliefs.

[BVS]

Once again, my comment as over reaching as it may have been was not based solely on their "belief", it was also based on how they handled the situation, their poor professional ethics, and the fact that they chose to deny the innocent party the care.


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[LuckyNumber7]

I think that probably reflects upon who that person is as a person. And thus, probably a shitty human being but nothing for certain.