The Gay Thread
- Thread starter Irvine511
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Yours did just not so long ago... It's one of the reasons Baptists have split in so many different sections.
You're ignoring the facts. Read the law, it does allow discrimination, this law goes beyond religious freedom.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
No and yes
Pizza lady can no longer tell gay people her religious beliefs prevent her from making gay wedding pizza cake.
But she can fire employee for being gay
She lost part of her religious rights
Pizza lady can no longer tell gay people her religious beliefs prevent her from making gay wedding pizza cake.
But she can fire employee for being gay
She lost part of her religious rights
OP
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
I don't think you have any understanding of the law itself.
You do realize that Christianity was used as justification for anti-miscegenation laws well into the 1960s, yes?
A wedding cake is a wedding cake. It's a specific product. Refusing to sell a gay person a wedding cake is discrimination, legally, in a state that has sexual orientation as a protected class. That status does not exist in Indiana. No gay person could ever sue a baker, or even their employer, for discrimination on the basis of orientation.
Why is this law even necessary in the state of Indiana?
bono_212
Blue Crack Distributor
So, I brought this up in conversation today with a few friends of mine, and one of them who is male and gay could not see how that was discrimination. He considered it that guy's religious right not to serve me. The irony made very, very confused.
The one my uncle, the preacher of my church, still seems to follow when he wouldn't marry my white cousin to her black fiance? They were married by my other cousin instead (the one who got into an argument with my mother at Church Sunday about this current law, lest I let him off the hook too much). Both of them are pastors at my church. Both of them are Baptists.
the iron horse
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Do you agree that a Muslim baker who refuses to bake a cake embellished with a degrading image of Mohammed should be fined and/or time in jail?
What if your wife requested a plain old regular wedding cake from a Muslim bakery? Would the Muslim baker be okay to deny that request because the wedding was not a Muslim wedding?
It's telling that the examples you're using are extreme - a swastika cake or a degrading Mohammed cake are hardly applicable hypotheticals to this situation.
It's not a matter of denying someone a cake that displays offensive imagery, it's a matter of denying someone a regular cake that you would happily sell to the next customer. That's where this law absolutely is about discrimination.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
It doesn't matter. There is nothing legally protected about someone who wants to buy a cake with a degrading depiction of Mohammad. Do you understand that point?
What would be illegal would be if the Muslim baker would refuse to make a cake for a woman.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
A better question
A Muslim baker is requested to bake a cake with the images of Jesus, Buddha and Mahomet for a non denominational service club.
A Muslim baker is requested to bake a cake with the images of Jesus, Buddha and Mahomet for a non denominational service club.
the iron horse
Rock n' Roll Doggie
It is highly unlikely a Muslim baker would deny a request for "a plain old regular wedding cake".
He might if the request was for a same-sex marriage cake.
If he did, I would support his right to do so.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Which he can do in Indiana. Long before this legislative nonsense ever came along.
He can't do that in New Mexico or Colorado.
Most of these scenarios are unlikely. The list of poor, persecuted bakers and florists and photographers can be counted on one hand. Most people are adults and realize that business is business.
Would you support his right to refuse to sell a cake (any cake) to a woman if his religion forbade him from economic transactions with females? What if he were a B&B owner and refused to rent a room to an unmarried heterosexual couple because his religion forbade him from facilitating premarital sexual intercourse?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Two questions:
But would you support their right if he denied you and your wife a Christian marriage cake?
Would you support him if he denied your Christian family member employment?
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
The fact that there are so many problematic questions and scenarios to pull from this is a sign that we're discussing a horrendous piece of legislation. Morally right or wrong, it's a poorly-worded mess.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Can I be polygamous if my religion allows it?
Can I drop LSD if my religion allows it?
Can I dance naked on the steps of the Capitol when there's a full moon if my religion allows it?
May I refuse drug tests of my religion allows it?
Am I now free to marry my sibling if my religion allows it?
Am I free to marry a 13 year old if my religion allows it? (Her parents are fine with it, they believe too).
Or do we only want freedom for one religion to discriminate against one particular group of people?
Can I drop LSD if my religion allows it?
Can I dance naked on the steps of the Capitol when there's a full moon if my religion allows it?
May I refuse drug tests of my religion allows it?
Am I now free to marry my sibling if my religion allows it?
Am I free to marry a 13 year old if my religion allows it? (Her parents are fine with it, they believe too).
Or do we only want freedom for one religion to discriminate against one particular group of people?
deep
Blue Crack Addict
.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
Why would that be his right to deny when he's simply making a cake, which is nothing offensive to his religion whatshowever?
He's making a cake.
Not an offensive cake like one with a swastika.
Would you consider it discrimination if he refused to sell a cake to a black couple?
deep
Blue Crack Addict
OP
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Those mean gay bullies made them a boatload of cash.
We need to pick our battles.
We need to pick our battles.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
I need a boatload of gay investors to join my project for establishing a no-gay restaurant in Indiana.
All proceeds will go to the Pride Foundation.
All proceeds will go to the Pride Foundation.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
I like how deep keeps posting the link to the gofundme site.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
So what if we make a restaurant owned and operated by gay people...
Would it be fair to say "sorry we don't serve people of faith..."?
Would it be fair to say "sorry we don't serve people of faith..."?
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
No. Because religious expression is protected by law.
I mentioned at one point a gay club that banned anyone from wearing heels of more than 2" because of "safety concerns." It was really a way to try to defer large groups of girls from going into the club, but they can't say "no women allowed" because that's discrimination on the basis of gender. Which is illegal.
I mentioned at one point a gay club that banned anyone from wearing heels of more than 2" because of "safety concerns." It was really a way to try to defer large groups of girls from going into the club, but they can't say "no women allowed" because that's discrimination on the basis of gender. Which is illegal.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
But would it be fair to say we don't serve straight people? Cause it's against our faith we just made up?
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Irvine... I was getting at what GG was getting at there. As according to my "gay religion."
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
This is the door that Indiana is opening.
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
1. What constitutes a religion?
2. How can a faith in a specific religion be materially proven?
3. What does each state-recognized religion actually believe?
Three huge questions that seemingly were not considered before this bill was passed.
2. How can a faith in a specific religion be materially proven?
3. What does each state-recognized religion actually believe?
Three huge questions that seemingly were not considered before this bill was passed.
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Generally under the law there are fairly well-developed tests/thresholds for religious beliefs. Because we are operating under the common law there will be variations from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but generally speaking at a very minimum you have to demonstrate that it is a genuinely held belief. So no, you can't just "make up" a faith.
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Per Scientology, any group that can bully and harass the IRS into stamping the document that declares you a religion, is a religion.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
That's a load of crap. You don't "want" someone to make up a faith. Yes, you *can* just make up a faith. It happens all the time.
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