The Gay Thread

[LuckyNumber7]

Well I definitely think tone matters most. Uncomfortable is something different than saying "it's wrong and they should feel wrong."

I think it's a very dynamic situation though. Not that black and white.

[Irvine511]

I think homophobia is misogyny by another name.

Feeling uncomfortable is much different than regularly using slurs, or loudly pronouncing one's heterosexuality via disgust with homosexuality.

[LuckyNumber7]

Well yeah, I mean that's the point I was making.

Some people might be uncomfortable around foreigners just because they never seen one but if they got to know them they'd realize it wasn't so bad.

Then, some people are xenophobic and simply feel as though these people are inferior.

[anitram]

Agreed. But Irvine you originally drew an analogy between "discomfort" with gays and women hating. Don't think discomfort is really what we're talking about.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by anitram

Agreed. But Irvine you originally drew an analogy between "discomfort" with gays and women hating. Don't think discomfort is really what we're talking about.

i said "level" of discomfort.

[anitram]

Ok, no sense in nitpicking but I'd take issue with that anyway. I don't think that somebody with a say, moderate level of discomfort around gays or lesbians has a moderate level of hate on for women. Maybe others can pipe in on their experiences so I'm not basing this on my own only.

[Diemen]

I'm on anitram's side with this one. I guess one could argue semantics and say that homophobes obviously have a strong level of discomfort around gay people, or that discomfort that crosses a line from internal to external action against gays might likely have ties to the person's thoughts on women, too.

But, Irvine, you did say that the boyfriend's level of discomfort around gays is analogous to his level of discomfort around women, and I don't think that's really true. I was uncomfortable around gays until I got to college, and, though I know it's convenient for me to be the judge of my behavior back then, I don't believe it was rooted in any discomfort/antipathy/misogynistic thoughts I had towards women, but simply that I was young and had very little exposure to gays prior to college.

[jeevey]

No, he said dislike of women. The theory here is that homophobia is really fear of feminization and being feminized, ie a man's fear of being treated in the way he treats women or thinks that women are meant to be treated.

For example, many men have no problem with lesbian women (sexayy) or even getting blow jobs from guys (many straight men do) but their major sticking point with gayness is the idea of men being penetrated, either anally or orally. Often you hear "that's just gross" or wrong or sick. And I think if a man finds the idea of getting fucked abhorrent, disgusting ect, there's a pretty good chance that he (consciously or not) regards penetration as an act of dominance that some people are meant to submit to but definitely not him--that fucking is on some level an act of power and degradation.

[LuckyNumber7]

Yikes, I don't think that's fair at all. That's throwing a bunch of people like myself out of the conversation.

Homophobia is much broader than that. You think homophobic people would be down with the gay if every gay person was a Macho Man Randy Savage? For what it's worth, there's plenty of gay people who wouldn't even subscribe to feminism or those who still would treat a woman the same way your typical straight guy would.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

or even getting blow jobs from guys (many straight men do)

What? What exactly are you basing this on?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Diemen

but simply that I was young

right. you grew up.

[deep]

Originally Posted by BVS

What? What exactly are you basing this on?

The Crying Game
prison

[BVS]

[Irvine511]

I don't mean to sound snarky. Wrote that in a hurry. But I think most men in high school and college have some level of discomfort, even when they are gay themselves. But maturity usually kicks in, as does some world experience, and to retain adios cent attitudes towards gays well into adulthood is evidence of misogyny, discomfort with deviations from traditional gender roles.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by BVS

What? What exactly are you basing this on?

This is the reason that Irvine mentioned in another thread there is an epidemiologial designation called 'men who have sex with men' (MSM), and less commonly, WSW. There's a fair number of men out there who identify as straight but for one reason or another have sex with men sometimes. One of the most common reasons is simply because it's a lot easier to get sex from another man than a woman. There are guys who romantically attach to women and may not be attracted to men at all but appreciate the fact that a strings-free blow job can be had for the price of a post on craigslist or Grinder. A bit of googling around, or just asking a gay friend if he's ever done a straight guy, will reveal this phenomenon fairly quickly.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

This is the reason that Irvine mentioned in another thread there is an epidemiologial designation called 'men who have sex with men' (MSM), and less commonly, WSW. There's a fair number of men out there who identify as straight but for one reason or another have sex with men sometimes. One of the most common reasons is simply because it's a lot easier to get sex from another man than a woman. There are guys who romantically attach to women and may not be attracted to men at all but appreciate the fact that a strings-free blow job can be had for the price of a post on craigslist or Grinder. A bit of googling around, or just asking a gay friend if he's ever done a straight guy, will reveal this phenomenon fairly quickly.

Yes.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

This is the reason that Irvine mentioned in another thread there is an epidemiologial designation called 'men who have sex with men' (MSM), and less commonly, WSW. There's a fair number of men out there who identify as straight but for one reason or another have sex with men sometimes. One of the most common reasons is simply because it's a lot easier to get sex from another man than a woman. There are guys who romantically attach to women and may not be attracted to men at all but appreciate the fact that a strings-free blow job can be had for the price of a post on craigslist or Grinder. A bit of googling around, or just asking a gay friend if he's ever done a straight guy, will reveal this phenomenon fairly quickly.

No, I know there are men who do this I'm just curious about identifying them as straight?

[jeevey]

They identify as straight, which I gather is the defining factor. As far as I've read, sexual orientation is not about who you have sex with but who you orient towards in a love relationship. Who you're attracted to, fall in love with, want to be with forever, that kind of thing. There are lots and lots of situations in which a straight person might choose gay sex--prison, the military, the priesthood, having a partner who avoids sex, having a high libido and a low concern with being close to a partner, enacting one's homophobia by establishing dominance over fags, and so on.

If you love men and seek them out for your most meaningful relationships but are married to a woman, you are still gay. If you love women and live with women but seek out men for easy meaningless sex, you're a straight MSM.

[Irvine511]

That's the irony.

People think being gay is about sex, when it's really about love.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

That's the irony.

People think being gay is about sex, when it's really about love.

I agree.