The Cowards Stoop Lower

[nbcrusader]

Not many people have the guts to strap a suicide belt on and willingly blow themselves up.

Oh, what bravery. They are complete COWARDS because they would NEVER face an equally armed foe.

 

[AvsGirl41]

They are cowards because they do not choose methods that will realistically bring them victory.

If you are truly brave and believe in your cause, you'd go after the Kremlin. You'd go after Putin. You wouldn't attack a school on the outskirts of Russia. It won't further your cause. It will only ensure more bombs are dropped on the poor innocents of *your* country.

Terrorists are cowards. To me, there's no longer any truth in the saying "One man's revolutionary is another man's terrorist." There are revolutionaries (Michael Collins, Che Guvara) and there are terrorists. Revolutionaries kill soldiers. I can admit they are brave. Terrorists kill civilians. There's no honor or glory in that.

 

[A_Wanderer]

AvsGirl, the other way it goes is "one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighty", but this leads to the great punchline - Firefighter's fight Fire, Crime Fighters fight Crime, what do you think Freedom Fighters Fight?

 

[Klaus]

A_Wanderer

The founding of the USA would be described in todays media as Terrorism against the British Crown

Anyway, also there is no clear boarder between Freedom Fighters and Terrorists, it's clear that people who commit crimes against children are Terrorists.
Also i have a lot of critizism for the Russian behaviour in this situation (banning their media etc) i can't think of anything that would justify such a behaviour.

394 confirmed dead, 500 expected

The German government has offered victims of the hostage crisis in southern Russian Beslan €100,000 in humanitarian aid. The Russian government had requested the aid, a German government spokeswoman said Sunday in Berlin, Reuters reported. German Red Cross was expected to deliver medical equipment and medicine to the region. More than 300 people were killed and 700 wounded after pro-Chechnyan militants held around 1,200 children and adults hostage in the town.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The Revolutionary War was not fought using terrorist tacticts. There is a significant difference between guerilla warfare and terrorism, principlally the targeting of innocent people. I do not recall minutemen murdering every pro-British family or blowing up innocent people randomly. Same here, I would say that a Chechen fighter who is fighting in Chechnya is a fighter, but if they then go over to Russia and blow a plane out of the sky or massacre innocent kids they are terrorists. Terrorists use violence to achieve political ends and as a means of propaganda.

Banning media is a very good way to prevent terrorism - as amoral as such an action is - because it removes the propaganda element. Without being broadcast around the world this atrocity would not be able to gain any sympathy for the Chechen cause, which it is doing, people are already talking about understanding the "root causes" of terrorism and giving the Chechens a free state (again) to run the way that they want because that will end terror. Its the same treatment Israel gets, blame the terrorists and not the victims.

 

[U2Kitten]

The Revolutionary War was not fought using terrorist tacticts.

No but sneaking up on the Hessians early on Christmas morning was kind of rotten

 

[A_Wanderer]

LOL on the sneakiness factor -

I was just reading the paper Opinion pages and came across this article by the brilliant Mark Steyn. I think that it says a lot about how the media rationalizes terror and just so you will read it it says, and I quote "The Painful Truth: All The World's Terrorists Are Muslims!". There is a proper context for that quote that is not just taking a broad stab at Muslims so now go read it.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10677436^7583,00.html

 

[A_Wanderer]

I hate to have to bring this up but I feel that it is important. Some al-Muhajiroun - the word I am thinking of rhymes with punt - is advocating the hostage taking of Women and Children in the UK as long as the "activist" or "hostage taker" has a just cause against the British Government. I cannot understand who lets people like this into a country like the UK. Terrorist enablers like this are an insult to every level headed moderate Muslim, and yet the sound of condemnation is deafeningly silent.

May he find himself in a life threatening situation that involves womens footwear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

 

[U2Kitten]

LOL on the sneakiness factor -

I was just reading the paper Opinion pages and came across this article by the brilliant Mark Steyn. I think that it says a lot about how the media rationalizes terror and just so you will read it it says, and I quote "The Painful Truth: All The World's Terrorists Are Muslims!". There is a proper context for that quote that is not just taking a broad stab at Muslims so now go read it.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10677436^7583,00.html

Thanks for posting that.

 

[u2granny]

I'm going to have to rethink how I approach the first days of school. A few of my students have family in that area.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Also i have a lot of critizism for the Russian behaviour in this situation (banning their media etc) i can't think of anything that would justify such a behaviour.

Yeah, it's disappointing and not altogether surprising given the way Putin was taking Russia.

I'm disgusted he is using the tragedy to implement more state control.

 

[Klaus]

AvsGirl41

sorry, i didn't write it propper.
"i can't think of anything that would justify such a behaviour." was directed to the Terrorists.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Detaining TERRORISTS is really a bad idea.

Because they lead to

- killing of 500 people - more than half of them innocent children ( type beslan in google)

- hijack of aircraft ( eg IC814 )

& Many such incidents.. Terrorist should be liquidated as soon as possible if we want to protect our innocent children.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Or at least say they are dead before you get to interrogate them.

 

[Klaus]

Besides the anger about the terrorists i expressed above i really get mad about putin again.

France's Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, while expressing solidarity with Russia, said he wanted all the necessary information about what had happened.

He echoed comments made by Dutch Foreign Minister Bernard Bot a couple of days ago, which prompted a furious reaction from Moscow.

But putin only plays it down and rejects independent or public investigation.

The Russian authorities said there were 10 Arabs among the hostage-takers, although not a single Arab body has been produced.

Does Putin have something to hide or does he simply want to abuse that tragedy for political purposes?

Here you can read some heartbreaking reports from eyewhitnesses:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3619012.stm

 

[A_Wanderer]

There have been numberous eyewitness accounts of what went on inside the school, there were rapes (obviously), mutilations (kiddies with their eyes cut gouged out by these jihadi's), stabbings (a child way bayonnetted after asking for some water) and people had to drink their own urine because of the sheer thirst (now if it had been Iraqi detainees who did that there would be no end to the global condemnation but innocent Russian kids, who cares).

The CT operation looked fucked, firstly they didn't establish a proper perimeter, they didn't maintain chopper sweeps around the buildings or have a ready to go breach team. Having said that that Euro(trash) Minister (comeon I just don't like pan-Europeanism) Bot was way out of line when he directed criticism to Putin directly over the responsibility for the attack - nobody was responsible for this slaughter other than the Jihadi's and their enablers/sponsers. There should be a full investigation to establish who was involved and how it went down but to level that "root causes" and "cycle of violence" bullshit at the victim is just as bad as their treatment of Israel after terror attacks.

I have my doubts that these attacks are based of a nationalist agenda - this was religious death cult apocalypse style terror, suicide terrorism against innocent people on such scale is restricted to Islamic Terrrorism, you simply do not see groups like ETA or the IRA go out and slaughter innocent kids by blowing themselves up with bombs but you see it happen all over the world by Islamic groups. If there was not a direct operational and monetary link to the Arabian networks then I would be suprised, if there was no ideological link then I would be astonished. Chechnya was transformed from a Nationalist conflict into a Religious one. There significant operational connections between the Islamist elements and global terror, it is sad but true fact in this Globalized world.

The best thing to aid the War on Terror is for Putin not to kill tens of thousands of innocent Chechens but to join in solidarity with Israel and the US to fight global terror, principally by getting Russia to stop arming the enemies of civilization with nuclear weapons/

 

[Klaus]

"comeon I just don't like pan-Europeanism"
Also you disslike it, no need to call it trash.

And there is at least some responsibility at the russian side if you look how many russians cooperated with the terrorists for money. (Angry citizens put money in the mouth of the Police chief at his funeral for example)

 

[A_Wanderer]

Maybe a smiley would clarify better, it was a "Eurotrash" throwaway line, kinda funny light hearted not in an offensive "I loath anything European way because I am an inbred imbecilic hick" type of way , I genuinely like Europe and Europeans, I am just highly skeptical that the EU will be able to increase its influence in the long run after eastward expansion and the inevitable restructuring of its security as the world completes the transition from Cold War power structure to its next condition.

I agree there is responsibility on indiduals who aided the terrorists for money, I would also say that there is quite a bit of responsibility on the army for not structuring a proper rescue plan but to publicly raise questions to the leader of a country directly really seems like poor diplomatic form, especially considering the dead hadn't even been buried.

 

[Klaus]

A_Wanderer
I agree with you that it was the wrong time for such accusations and Bernard Bot excused allready for that .

The best thing to aid the War on Terror is for Putin not to kill tens of thousands of innocent Chechens but to join in solidarity with Israel and the US to fight global terror, principally by getting Russia to stop arming the enemies of civilization with nuclear weapons

Mr. Putin is allready jumping on that train:
"He told two British newspapers that entering talks was akin to the West negotiating with Osama Bin Laden."

So the message is "do what you want to do in the name of counterterrorism and let us do what we want with the Chechens" (also we still have no proof who was responsible for that terroristic act and we don't want public investigations about that subject.

So... who are these terrorists?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627586.stm

Though some hostages are reported to have recognised Doku Umarov from pictures shown them by investigators, little other evidence has otherwise been produced to support the claim.

Officials initially claimed there were nine or 10 Arabs among the hostage-takers - possibly in an attempt to back up their allegation of al-Qaeda involvement - but some surviving hostages have said they saw no Arabs in the school.

The only surviving hostage-taker so far shown on television spoke Russian with an accent typical for the North Caucasus.

The official Chechen rebel leader, Aslan Maskhadov, has condemned the seizure of the school.

Earlier, Mr Maskhadov's envoy in Europe, Ahmed Zakayev, said he had been told by the former Ingush leader, Ruslan Aushev, who tried to negotiate an end to the crisis, that the hostage takers were not themselves Chechen.

Interestingly, the Kommersant newspaper on Friday lent some support to this theory, saying investigators suspected that the ringleaders - or at least those who took part in the negotiations - were Magomet Yevloyev (an ethnic Ingush fighter close to Basayev), Vladimir Khodov (from North Ossetia) and an unnamed Russian, possibly one of Basayev's bodyguards.

If it turns out to be true that Chechens were not running the Beslan operation on the ground, this will be a new development.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The nationality of those running the operation makes little difference, the political and dare I say religious ideology that inspires such unmitigated evil is the real problem here, one that I have no doubt Chechen nationalists are equally opposed to. The solution will not be a stepped up Chechnya campaign, it will come from solid cooperation against totalitarian Islam and not just using the War on Terror as a blanket excuse for any actions against pesky ethnic groups.

 

[AcrobatMan]

but some surviving hostages have said they saw no Arabs in the school.

[/B]

but some saw..and that is important.

"Before the assault the bandits started arguing with each other about something. I've spent a long time in Chechnya, I know the Chechen language, and they weren't speaking Chechen - they were just speaking a strange language like Arabic, and also Ingush.

"One of the gunmen was reading the Koran constantly, and I counted exactly 23 gunmen altogether. The leader was on the roof the whole time with a sniper's rifle. We realised that, because the others went to him for advice. "

"The older pupils were forced to carry desks to barricade the windows. When the assault started one of the bandits shouted 'I'll save you'. Everybody ran towards him and then he blew himself up, killing many people. "

 

[Klaus]

AcrobatMan

There is a difference between Arabs and Muslims, so it could be that people who aren't arabs spoke Arabic (the language of Q'ran).
Well all speculation until the investigations can tell us who is behind all this.

It could be:
-Arabs
-Chechns
-Muslims
-Christians
-Atheists

or even something different

 

[A_Wanderer]

Pop quiz

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped & massacred by:
(a) Olga Corbutt
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, & a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kid
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked & destroyed & thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonnie and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

I think we can safely speculate that the monsters who did this were Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

 

[DrTeeth]

I think we can safely speculate that the monsters who did this were Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

I thought there were reports that there were female terrorists involved too, just like in the theatre in Moscow.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah good. equal oppertunity terror organizations - you gotta love them (with a neutron bomb!)

 

[pax]

A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.

 

[STING2]

A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.

A_Wanderer did not insinuate that all muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorist. He also did not deny that there are other non-muslim terrorist groups. It is a fact that Muslim extremist were the ones who committed each of the terrorist acts above. I do not know about the age thing, but that is probably generally correct for the terrorist acts he mentioned.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Ah good. equal oppertunity terror organizations - you gotta love them (with a neutron bomb!)

to add, 2 islamic terrorist who blew up 50 civilians in Mumbai were females..that was around 26 august 2003

 

[AcrobatMan]

A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.

sorry to say that your reasoning & inference is rather weak?

please read the sequence of posts again !!!!

 

[AcrobatMan]

btw whats the age of Osama..I bet he is over 40