the conservative case for same sex marriage

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And the property tax revenue lost from people no longer having to file their house as "Semi-Homesteaded" meaning they have a "renter." Huh?


We bought our house from a Lesbian couple that were breaking up and had to get the house converted to full "Homesteaded" to get the sale to go through.

I never would have known about that legal crap if not for our house--institutionalized discrimination--the only way they got their mortgage to work was to have one of the partners be a renter. :down:
 
We bought our house from a Lesbian couple that were breaking up and had to get the house converted to full "Homesteaded" to get the sale to go through.

I never would have known about that legal crap if not for our house--institutionalized discrimination--the only way they got their mortgage to work was to have one of the partners be a renter. :down:

Oh my God.
 
Oh and Nathan, care to comment yet on this example of the "will of the people" and "representative democracy" yet?

California Proposition 14 (1963) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I ask, and you demur, so carefully. Another case of the "will of the people" getting turned over by those damn activist judges.


I was 8 years old and remember that fairly well.

There were 'reasonable' non-racist* arguments for Prop 14.

They went like this,

The Government has no business telling me who I can sell my house to.

If two people want to buy my house and if one of them is a long time friend and I sell to him, I can be charged with a crime if the other person happens to be colored.

A man's home is his castle, he should be free to sell it to whoever he chooses.
 
thinkprogress.org

Conservatives Blame Loss In Prop 8 Case On Judge’s Homosexuality

Last night, after U.S. District Chief Judge Vaughn Walker ruled that denying gays and lesbians the right to marry violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the U.S. Constitution, supporters of Proposition 8 expressed disappointment and pledged to appeal the decision to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and all the way up to the Supreme Court.

But some conservative activists lashed out against Walker, using his sexual orientation to dismiss the decision altogether:

American Families Association: “It’s also extremely problematic that Judge Walker is a practicing homosexual himself. He should have recused himself from this case, because his judgment is clearly compromised by his own sexual proclivity. The fundamental issue here is whether homosexual conduct, with all its physical and psychological risks, should be promoted and endorsed by society.

National Organization For Marriage: Here we have an openly gay (according to the San Francisco Chronicle) federal judge substituting his views for those of the American people and of our Founding Fathers who I promise you would be shocked by courts that imagine they have the right to put gay marriage in our Constitution.”

POWERLINE:“Conservatives have long said that the day would come when liberal judges declare the Constitution unconstitutional. That happened today, when a gay federal judge in San Francisco, relying on the opinions of mostly-gay ‘expert’ witnesses, ruled that an amendment to the California constitution, which was adopted in perfectly proper fashion by a substantial majority of voters, is ‘unconstitutional.’

Bishop Harry Jackson, chair of “Stand for Marriage DC”: “The majority of Californians, including two-thirds of black voters in California, have just had their core civil right — the right to vote — stripped from them by an openly gay federal judge who has misread history and the Constitution to impose his San Francisco views on the American people…this is a travesty of justice.”

Pat Buchanan: It is unnatural….an older white guy handed down the decision and he happened to be gay. That might have had something to do with it.

As I predicted. :rolleyes:

These FUCKERS wouldn't dare say that (out loud) about a black judge on a civil rights case.


Or would they in today's "post-racial" climate? After all, the election of a black president is proof that the US is beyond race now, right?
 
National Organization For Marriage: Here we have an openly gay (according to the San Francisco Chronicle) federal judge substituting his views for those of the American people and of our Founding Fathers who I promise you would be shocked by courts that imagine they have the right to put gay marriage in our Constitution.



other things our so-called Founding Fathers would be shocked by:

1. that women are supposed to have equal rights with men.
2. that there are nine planets in our solar system
3. that blacks are free and can legally marry white people
4. that when you get a cold or the flu doctors don't bleed you to get the bad blood out.
5. that the American Government allows people to be held and not charged for an indefinite time.
6. that corporations have attained 'person' status rights.
 
speaking of blacks 'n gays, here's an almost breathtaking post by Ta-Nehisi Coates on the whole subject:



Race And Gay Marriage In Perspective

Aug 3 2010, 7:28 AM ET | Comment

I woke up at two this morning, thinking about the the thread below, which got a little heated after a commenter argued that the fallen ban against interracial marriage made for a bad comparison with gay marriage. I've argued in the past that it was actually a very good comparison, but as I thought about it this morning, I found the analogy less convincing.

Let us, first, stipulate that the very endeavor of comparing "gays" and "blacks" is inherently problematic, incomplete and exclusionary. Still, I think some general truths can be teased out here. First, gays are presently waging an imminently just fight for the right to marry within their own community. In 1965, when Loving v Virginia passed, blacks already enjoyed the right to marry within their own community. Moreover, I think it's fair to say that many of blacks, at that time, either preferred it that way or were rather agnostic on the issue.

In 1960, virtually every black person in America, either was directly--and immediately--affected by housing segregation or directly knew someone who was. To the extent that this was true of interracial marriage, it wasn't just true of black people, but white people too. In other words, whatever the justness of the fight for interracial marriage, it was never "a black issue" in the way that, say, voting rights in the South were.

A comparison between gay marriage and the Civil Rights movement may put-off some--some--African-Americans because it misstates the context of Loving vs. Virginia. My sense is that most blacks supported the movement not because they wanted the right to marry white people, but because they wanted the right to compete with them. Indeed, for almost a century blacks actively resisted the notion that civil right equaled interracial marriage, because racists had repeatedly clubbed the movement with charges of miscegenation. Note that in all the protests you see during the Civil Rights movement, very little of it is organized around interracial marriage.

Much worse, the comparison with interracial marriage actually understates the evil of reserving marriage rights for certain classes of people. Banning interracial marriage meant that most black people could not marry outside of their race. This was morally indefensible, but very different than a total exclusion of gays from the institution of marriage. Throughout much of America, gays are effectively banned from marrying, not simply certain types of people, but any another compatible partner period. Unlike heterosexual blacks in 1960, the ban gays suffer under is unconditional and total and effectively offers one word for an entire sector of Americans--Die. For evading that ban means virtual--if not literal--suicide.

A more compelling analogy would be a law barring blacks, not from marrying other whites, but effectively from marrying anyone at all. In fact we have just such an analogy. In the antebellum South, the marriages of the vast majority of African-Americans, much like gays today, held no legal standing. Slavery is obviously, itself, a problem--but abolitionists often, and accurately, noted that among its most heinous features was its utter disrespect for the families of the enslaved. Likewise, systemic homophobia is, itself, a problem--but among its most heinous features is its utter disrespect for the families formed by gays and lesbians. Of course African-Americans, gay and straight, in 1810 lacked many other rights that gays, of all colors, today enjoy. Thus, to state the obvious, being born gay is not the same as being born a slave. But the fact is that in 1810, the vast majority of African-Americans--much like the vast majority of gays in 2010--lacked the ability to legally marry.

My sense is that this is an argument that will sway very few bigots in the black community. But frankly, as black person, I've always considered the logic of my humanity to be my own selfish interest, as opposed to a tool for washing racists. Given that gays are often born into straight families, perhaps my viewpoint is a marker of privilege. Still, I think it's worth considering the limits of reasoning with homophobes. The Civil Rights movement's strategy of appealing to white humanity--which was incredibly effective--has never been my way.

Nationalism is, for good or ill, at my core. Thus I see the fight for marriage rights not as a fight for a squishy, gauzy "tolerance," but as a fight for gay self-determination. The family is not just a building block of civilizations, but a defense against civilizations which, so often, prove themselves unworthy of the name. Thus gay marriage is, to me, not about relieving homophobes of their burdensome ignorance but about the right of gays to defend themselves against that ignorance.

In 1860, alchemists sought to build a country upon (among other things) their right to deprive blacks of their greatest defense--the family. So ardent were they in this hare-brained scheming, that America lost more than half a million of its bravest young men, two percent of its entire population, and arguably its greatest president. Countless, nameless deaths have come in the aftershocks. One hundred and fifty years later, having learned nothing, the alchemists have returned, insistent on their right to perpetrate the exact same folly upon gays.

They must be stopped.


Race And Gay Marriage In Perspective - National - The Atlantic
 
As I predicted. :rolleyes:

These FUCKERS wouldn't dare say that (out loud) about a black judge on a civil rights case.


Or would they in today's "post-racial" climate? After all, the election of a black president is proof that the US is beyond race now, right?


Mark this date on your calendar...we agree. :applaud:
 
other things our so-called Founding Fathers would be shocked by:

1. that women are supposed to have equal rights with men.
2. that there are nine planets in our solar system
3. that blacks are free and can legally marry white people
4. that when you get a cold or the flu doctors don't bleed you to get the bad blood out.
5. that the American Government allows people to be held and not charged for an indefinite time.
6. that corporations have attained 'person' status rights.

Hey there old man...there are 8 planets...Pluto lost its right to be called planet.
 
^ an easy jugdement to make by an EARTHling.

jw.jpg


Homeosexualist :no:
 
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The anti-homo side's willingness to rely on the "will of the people" rather than rely on the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution.

Three of the seven judges disagreed with you. I agree with them. Earth shattering.

A coherent, rational explanation for the existence of the law (whether or not you agree) can be found in the dissenting opinion.

Back to the grind.
 
Can be earth shattering if you're trying to access the Constitution. I'm sure there were dissenting opinions for in the Loving case as well.

There was a dissenting opinion in Baker v. Nelson too, with which Melon agrees. Duelling interpretations of what the Constitution actually says is part of what makes our political process so robust.
 
NY Times

August 21, 2010
Over Time, a Gay Marriage Groundswell

By ANDREW GELMAN, JEFFREY LAX and JUSTIN PHILLIPS

Gay marriage is not going away as a highly emotional, contested issue. Proposition 8, the California ballot measure that bans same-sex marriage, has seen to that, as it winds its way through the federal courts.

But perhaps the public has reached a turning point.

A CNN poll this month found that a narrow majority of Americans supported same-sex marriage — the first poll to find majority support. Other poll results did not go that far, but still, on average, showed that support for gay marriage had risen to 45 percent or more (with the rest either opposed or undecided).

That’s a big change from 1996, when Congress passed the Defense of Marriage Act. At that time, only 25 percent of Americans said that gay and lesbian couples should have the right to marry, according to an average of national polls.

The more important turning points in public opinion, however, may be occurring at the state level, especially if states continue to control who can get married.

According to our research, as recently as 2004, same-sex marriage did not have majority support in any state. By 2008, three states had crossed the 50 percent line. *

Today, 17 states are over that line (more if you consider the CNN estimate correct that just over 50 percent of the country supports gay marriage).

In 2008, the year Proposition 8 was approved, just under half of Californians supported same-sex marriage,. Today, according to polls, more than half do. A similar shift has occurred in Maine, where same-sex marriage legislation was repealed by ballot measure in 2009.

In both New York and New Jersey, where state legislatures in the past have defeated proposals to allow same-sex marriage, a majority now support it.

And support for same-sex marriage has increased in all states, even in relatively conservative places like Wyoming and Kentucky. Only Utah is still below where national support stood in 1996.

Among the five states that currently allow same-sex marriage, Iowa is the outlier. It is the only one of those states where support falls below half, at 44 percent.

This trend will continue. Nationally, a majority of people under age 30 support same-sex marriage. And this is not because of overwhelming majorities found in more liberal states that skew the national picture: our research shows that a majority of young people in almost every state support it. As new voters come of age, and as their older counterparts exit the voting pool, it’s likely that support will increase, pushing more states over the halfway mark.



State figures are based on a statistical technique has been used to generate state estimates from national polls. Public opinion is estimated in small demographic categories within each state, and then these are averaged using census information to get state-level summaries. Estimates in 2010 are projected from 2008 state-level estimates using an aggregate national estimate of 45 percent (or 50 percent) support for gay marriage.

The authors are professors of political science at Columbia University.
 
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