the conservative case for same sex marriage

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by kramwest1

I can't wait until the older generation that thinks that male on male pedophiles equal gay dies off. I can't believe I still hear that occasionally.

Can I get a ruling from our non sequitur umpires on this?

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I have no idea the context from that short clip, only that Sen Franken is hostile to the gentlemen's testimony and feels the need to get a cheap laugh at the witness's expense.

For the record, early in this debate I cited such studies to support my beliefs and thanks to Irvine saw that that was not entirely fair. While I still think the ideal for child rearing is a loving biological mother and father (and that only a zealot would think otherwise) I no longer would cite statistics comparing same-sex parents with single parents in my opposition to gay marriage.

Why would only a zealot think otherwise?

[yolland]

The Atlantic, July 23

According to a study conducted by the Children's Hospital Boston, approximately 25% of gay teens in Massachusetts have no place to call home. They're not necessarily living on the street. In this case, "homeless" means the students have no permanent address--they could be staying with friends or extended family. But the lack of a stable home can negatively affect a student's performance in school, and makes dropping out more likely. The study is summarized in this release from the hospital:

"Roughly 1 in 4 lesbian or gay teens and 15% of bisexual teens are homeless, versus 3% of exclusively heterosexual teens, finds a Children's Hospital Boston study of more than 6,300 Massachusetts public high school students. Moreover, among teens who were homeless, those who were gay, lesbian or bisexual (GLB) were consistently more likely than heterosexuals to be on their own, unaccompanied by a parent or guardian.

The study, published online July 21 by the American Journal of Public Health, is the first to quantify the risk of homelessness among teens of different sexual orientations with population-based data. "Prior studies in homeless street youth have found that sexual minorities occur in much higher numbers than we'd expect based on their numbers in the community in general," says Heather Corliss, PhD, MPH, of the Division of Adolescent and Young Adult Medicine at Children's, the study's first author. "This study looked at the magnitude of the difference for the first time."

...Less than 5% of [6,317] students overall identified themselves as GLB, yet they accounted for 19% of those who identified themselves as homeless...Among the youth who were homeless, those who were not exclusively heterosexual were more likely to be living away from their families. Among boys identifying as gay, 15% were homeless but unaccompanied by parents/guardians, and 8% were homeless but living with parents. Among lesbian girls, 22.5% were homeless and unaccompanied, while just 3.8% were homeless but with their parents.

[deep]

Is Perry for repealing DOMA?

Gov. Perry Takes States Rights Position on Gay Marriage

Sat, Jul. 23, 2011 Posted: 03:07 PM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Texas Governor Rick Perry said that he favors letting states decide whether or not to allow gay marriage, a remark that could have repercussions for a possible presidential bid.

“Our friends in New York six weeks ago passed a statute that said marriage can be between two people of the same sex. And you know what? That's New York, and that's their business, and that's fine with me. That is their call. If you believe in the 10th Amendment, stay out of their business,” Perry said at an event held by the Aspen Institute in Aspen, Colo., on Friday.

Those who favor giving states authority over the federal government often cite the 10th Amendment to the Constitution in defense of their position. It says, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Perry was also referencing New York state's recently passed law allowing gay marriage. The law goes into effect on Sunday.

Perry is widely expected to announce sometime mid-August that he will seek to become the next Republican nominee for President of the United States. Social conservatives were expected to be an important bloc of support for Perry. This announcement, however, throws that common wisdom into question.

There were some media reports that Christian Right leaders have been encouraging Perry to run and offered their support if he did. Some of those reports were false, however. Perry's support among Christian Right leaders may not be as broad as these media reports claimed.

[INDY500]

I doubt it or Texas loses the right to determine its own marriage laws.

Defense of Marriage Act

Section 2. Powers reserved to the states
No State, territory, or possession of the United States, or Indian tribe, shall be required to give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State, territory, possession, or tribe respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other State, territory, possession, or tribe, or a right or claim arising from such relationship.

[BVS]

Perry is still very much for sodomy laws.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by BVS

Perry is still very much for sodomy laws.

they do help him resist slipping into temptation.

[deep]

if he 'slips'
than technically it not his fault

keep in mind he was a once a Democrat and Chair of the Al Gore for President Committee.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by deep

keep in mind he was a once a Democrat and Chair of the Al Gore for President Committee.

Why should we keep this in mind?

[nathan1977]

Fascinating and thought-provoking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/ny...ognize-it.html

Bound in a Gay Union by a State Denying It
By KAREN HARTMAN
Published: July 15, 2011

I’ve never had perfect timing. When New York finally legalized same-sex marriage last month, I had just gotten out of my lesbian union and married a guy.

If New York had allowed gay marriage in 2000, my girlfriend and I would never have driven to Vermont from Brooklyn to seize its groundbreaking offer of a same-sex civil union. We would never have held our double-white-gown ceremony in a field at sunset. We would never have gathered friends and family to rejoice in a verdant state where we did not live. And when we split in 2004, we would have gotten a divorce.

Instead, we spent almost seven years in a legal limbo that held us in our union by not recognizing it. I fell in love with a man. He and I had a child....

[Irvine511]

great reason why DOMA should be repealed and marriage equality is the only way to avoid the separate-but-not-equal status of civil unions.

the money quote, for me:

Every advanced society has a court — surely one of the cornerstones of being civilized — and to live forcibly outside that system is to live without full access to civilization. Is there any clearer definition of a second-class citizen?

[MrsSpringsteen]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — A lesbian couple is asking for changes at Dollywood after an employee asked one of the women to turn her T-shirt reading "marriage is so gay" inside-out to avoid offending others on a recent visit to the Tennessee theme park complex.

Olivier Odom and Jennifer Tipton said Tuesday they want the park to be more inclusive of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender families after Odom was asked to reverse her shirt when they visited Dollywood Splash Country next to the Pigeon Forge amusement park. The story was first reported by WBIR-TV in Knoxville.

Dollywood spokesman Pete Owens said on Tuesday that Dollywood is open to all families, but their dress code policy is to ask people with clothing or tattoos that could be considered offensive to change clothes or cover up.

Owens said the couple was not asked to leave and complied with the rules to reverse the shirt when asked.

"The park is open every day to everybody," Owens said. "We try to provide an environment for families of all shapes and sizes to enjoy themselves.

Owens said park officials were discussing the matter and would speak with the couple directly.

Odom said that they visited the water park July 9 with friends and their friends' two children when she was asked by a person at the front gate to turn her shirt inside out because it was a family park.

Odom said she complied so as not to make a scene in front of the children, but felt offended.

"That's what we found so offensive — that he said it was a family park," Tipton said. "Families come in a wide range of definitions these days and we were with our family."

The two said they felt they needed to file a complaint with Dollywood because they believed it was important to stand up for their beliefs in marriage equality.

"If marriage equality is going to happen, it's not going to happen if people sit at home quietly," Odom said.

Odom said they understand the park can have dress code policies, but she felt Dollywood needed to make their policies clear and provide better training for employees when determining what is considered offensive.

Odom and Tipton are not legally married, but held a ceremony last year in North Carolina. They wrote an email to the park asking the park "to implement policies that are inclusive of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people; conduct staff sensitivity training; and issue a public statement indicating that the park is inclusive of all families."

Owens said the couple's complaints have sparked discussion at the park about the dress code, a policy that park employees deal with frequently because of the thousands of visitors every year.

[kramwest1]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — A lesbian couple is asking for changes at Dollywood after an employee asked one of the women to turn her T-shirt reading "marriage is so gay" inside-out to avoid offending others on a recent visit to the Tennessee theme park complex.

Olivier Odom and Jennifer Tipton said Tuesday they want the park to be more inclusive of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender families after Odom was asked to reverse her shirt when they visited Dollywood Splash Country next to the Pigeon Forge amusement park. The story was first reported by WBIR-TV in Knoxville.

Dollywood spokesman Pete Owens said on Tuesday that Dollywood is open to all families, but their dress code policy is to ask people with clothing or tattoos that could be considered offensive to change clothes or cover up.

Owens said the couple was not asked to leave and complied with the rules to reverse the shirt when asked.

"The park is open every day to everybody," Owens said. "We try to provide an environment for families of all shapes and sizes to enjoy themselves.

Owens said park officials were discussing the matter and would speak with the couple directly.

Odom said that they visited the water park July 9 with friends and their friends' two children when she was asked by a person at the front gate to turn her shirt inside out because it was a family park.

Odom said she complied so as not to make a scene in front of the children, but felt offended.

"That's what we found so offensive — that he said it was a family park," Tipton said. "Families come in a wide range of definitions these days and we were with our family."

The two said they felt they needed to file a complaint with Dollywood because they believed it was important to stand up for their beliefs in marriage equality.

"If marriage equality is going to happen, it's not going to happen if people sit at home quietly," Odom said.

Odom said they understand the park can have dress code policies, but she felt Dollywood needed to make their policies clear and provide better training for employees when determining what is considered offensive.

Odom and Tipton are not legally married, but held a ceremony last year in North Carolina. They wrote an email to the park asking the park "to implement policies that are inclusive of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people; conduct staff sensitivity training; and issue a public statement indicating that the park is inclusive of all families."

Owens said the couple's complaints have sparked discussion at the park about the dress code, a policy that park employees deal with frequently because of the thousands of visitors every year.

Not that I ever want to go to Dollywood, but if I lived close, I'd go with my camera and hunt down every offensive shirt I saw. I'm willing to bet there are worse ones than "Marriage Is So Gay."

[MrsSpringsteen]

From a 2009 article

The always candid Dolly Parton has revealed that she's in favor of granting gays and lesbians the rights to marry.

"Sure, why can't they get married? They should suffer like the rest of us do," the outspoken superstar told CNN show host Joy Behar. When Behar suggested Dolly's Southern roots might not mesh with the idea of marriage equality, the singer agreed, "I know that's true."

The flamboyant entertainer admits she feels a certain kinship with her many gay and lesbian fans."I think it's because they know I'm different too, and it took me a long time to be accepted," she reasons.

"Plus, a lot of my gay guy friends love to dress up," she adds. "I think they just appreciate the fact that I love everybody for who they are."

Dolly did have some strong words, however, for Houston megachurch pastor Joel Osteen, who earlier this month stated that "homosexuality is not God's best work." "I don't want to talk about him," she said with a laugh. "I think God made us who we are and how we are, and I don't think if [Osteen] was a religious person, he would be judging people."

Dolly herself has weathered gay rumors. She and assistant Judy Ogle are constantly spotted together, and their close friendship (they've also been best friends since the third grade) eventually fueled speculation about whether the two were romantically connected, as well.

"We're totally honest, open, and comfortable with each other," Dolly told AARP magazine of her friendship with Judy. "We've been accused of being lovers. We do love each other, but we've never been like that."

Dolly shrugs off the rumors and insists that the "I dos" she said 43 years ago with husband Carl Dean were meant for life.

"I know we'll never divorce," she says. "He always knows I'm coming home."

[Irvine511]

i want to go to Dollywood.

[Irvine511]

playwright Larry Kramer is mad at the New York Times. i'm not interested in that. i am interested in the following piece he wrote:

“The historic and cultural significance of this moment is that once again the gay population of this country continues to accept second best. These marriages, in whichever state, are what I call ‘feel-good marriages.’ They convey little in the way of benefits (and in some instances they are even financially punishing to those who embark on them). Compared to the benefits heterosexual marriages convey, gay marriages are an embarrassment - that we should accept so little, and with so much hoopla of excitement and self-congratulation. Most straight people who are congratulating us so effusively don’t understand that these marriages share none of their federal benefits and entitlements, the right to inherit without punishing taxation, the right for our joint incomes not to be taxed so hideously high, the right to share insurances -- there are over one thousand benefits worth money that the federal government bestows on heterosexual marriages and which our state marriages don’t. So why do we continue to get so excited when so few worthless crumbs are thrown our way? I have from the beginning never understood the philosophy and tactics of our various organizations who appear to be calling the shots on this issue. If we are to wait for a majority of states to recognize gay marriages, we'll all be dead. When are we going to recognize that until the Supreme Court blesses our union, we continue to be worthless and powerless, which is the way our enemies wish us to remain. When will we face up to the fact that no sooner does a state grant us marriage, than our enemies immediately tie up the courts in endless litigations to disallow them, as in the monstrous mess that has become California. Our enemies have bottomless pockets to fight us with. It has been discovered that the biggest contributors to the California wars are and have been the Mormon and Catholic churches. I do not disparage any gay couple's desire to wed in New York, or anywhere else, and in so doing feel and take joy from this act. But let us all recognize that beyond this euphoria, these marriages are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. And once again, I can only raise the cry: how long are we as a people going to accept such shabby and unequal treatment?”

AMERICAblog Gay: "Larry Kramer responds to some misinformed critics"

Kramer's a crank, but i admire his bile.

[Pearl]

Thousands of same-sex couples have been married in New York since gay marriage was legalized in the Empire State in July. Now an online petition is pushing to have one more twosome join the line at City Hall – Sesame Street's Bert and Ernie.
That's right – the muppets.
Chicago resident Lair Scott started an online petition at Change.org to pressure the Sesame Street Workshop to "Let Bert & Ernie get married on Sesame Street." The petition reads, "We are not asking Sesame Street to do anything crude or disrespectful…. It can be done in a tasteful way. Let us teach tolerance of those that are different." As of this writing, the petition had collected more than 1,600 signatures.
But are Bert and Ernie even gay, never mind ready for the ultimate commitment? Scott clearly thinks so. In an interview with ABC News.com, Scott said, "A lot of people have wondered about Bert and Ernie.... Living in the same bedroom and the same home would make anyone question their sexuality." His aim, he added, is to get 20,000 petitioners to encourage the Sesame Workshop to either marry Bert and Ernie or introduce a gay or lesbian character.
A few days before he posted the marriage petition, Scott had generated another, asking Sesame Workshop to "Out Bert and Ernie as Gay."

In Light of Legalized Same Sex Marriage in New York, Online Petition Urges Bert and Ernie to Wed on 'Sesame Street' - ABC News

I really don't like it when some people insist that Bert and Ernie are gay. Aren't they supposed to be little kids and not adults? If they're the former, then they're not supposed to have a sexuality per se. Young kids don't think romantically of each other in the same way adults do.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I really don't like it when some people insist that Bert and Ernie are gay. Aren't they supposed to be little kids and not adults? If they're the former, then they're not supposed to have a sexuality per se. Young kids don't think romantically of each other in the same way adults do.

If they're suppose to be kids, where are the parents?

They're two males that live in the same room(if I remember right) but in separate beds? Outside of college, that seems a little odd to most adults in the states. But to asign sexuality to them seems odd to me as well.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

If they're suppose to be kids, where are the parents?

They're two males that live in the same room(if I remember right) but in separate beds? Outside of college, that seems a little odd to most adults in the states.

Yeah, but its Sesame Street. In the real world, no creature lives in a garbage can and giant yellow birds don't exist.

But to assign sexuality to them seems odd to me as well.

Why so?

If Sesame Street introduces a gay character, fine. But having Bert and Ernie as gay? Nah! It just...I don't know, irks me in some way.

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think they're adults and I think they're asexual. Just like the Odd Couple dudes.

Big Bird, on the other hand....