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Old 03-25-2011, 08:00 AM   #681
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why do you think it's important to make sure gay people remain second class citizens?
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Old 03-25-2011, 08:58 AM   #682
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Please explain why a mom and dad are not the ideal family.

Please explain why the the destruction of this family unit has been a positive event for this generation.
This was never the point.

Now you either know this and willingly play ignorant, or you really don't understand this subject enough to have an adult conversation about it.

This combined with your constant avoidance of questions shows a person that lacks the tools to engage in such a debate.
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:26 AM   #683
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And lack the support for their argument outside of a superiority claim.
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:51 AM   #684
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And lack the support for their argument outside of a superiority claim.


and it's that claim that tells us that, in all cases, heterosexual Charlie Sheen, so long as he is with a woman who can thusly be a mother, is a better parent than these two men:


Quote:
Against All Odds, a Beautiful Life
By PETER APPLEBOME

MONTCLAIR, N.J.

Some things we know for sure — a little boy dealt a seemingly impossible hand, the two gay men who decided to give him a home and a life, the unlikely spell cast by the only horse in Montclair.

Beyond that, well, it was what you could never quite know as much as what you could that drew 500 people, friends and strangers, to St. Luke’s Episcopal Church on Saturday to ponder the lesson in grace and resilience, the parable of good lives and deeds outside the prescribed lines, in the remarkably long and way-too-short life of Maurice Mannion-Vanover, dead at the age of 20 on Jan. 14.

Few people begin life with so many strikes against them as Maurice had when he was born with AIDS on Sept. 11, 1990, to a crack-addicted mother in a hospital in Washington. There were physical and developmental issues severe enough that his twin sister, Michelle Reed, lived only 20 months. Deserted by his parents, he got his first break in 1993 when two men, intent on caring for a baby with serious physical needs, agreed to take him in.

The two, who came to be known as the Tims, Tim Mannion and Tim Vanover, were told he would probably live six months. But, to everyone’s amazement, he began to thrive. He gained weight. His T-cell count steadily increased. In 1996, they adopted him, becoming the first gay couple in Washington to adopt a child. A year later, they adopted a second son, Kindoo, eight years older. When Tim Vanover got a new job in New York, they moved to Montclair in 1998.

Eventually, the family of two white gay men and two black children became two men, two children and one horse, Rocky, short for Rockefeller. The Tims bought Rocky, a 4-year-old cross between a Morgan and a quarter horse, for $3,500 in 2002 and gave him to Maurice on Christmas Eve.


Montclair, a densely populated suburb, isn’t exactly horse country, but they had a double lot with an old carriage house near downtown. And Maurice had fallen in love with horses, almost transformed by their presence. Atop a horse, seemingly glued to the saddle, the slender child seemed to blossom, his back straighter, his eyes brighter, as if on top not of a horse, but of the world.

To say this was a blessing for Maurice is an understatement. But it wasn’t just for Maurice. Before long, everyone in Montclair, certainly every kid, knew about the house with the horse and the incredibly lucky kid who owned him. And before long, the intersection of Union and Harrison was a mecca for children and a magnet for passers-by, invariably greeted with a wave from Maurice and often a greeting from Rocky, who trotted up to view neighbors each day on their way to work.

It’s not as if everything went smoothly. Far from it. Maurice’s health could be precarious, like the heart condition that almost killed him in 1998.

Rocky sometimes got free, galloping down busy Harrison Avenue, where the New Jersey Transit buses go, then eating some of the neighbors’ flowers. And the Tims — stout, outgoing Tim Vanover and thin, more reserved Tim Mannion — broke up, but only as a couple, not as Maurice’s fathers, choosing to live together and continue to raise him.

None of that affected Maurice, who became a fixture in his neighborhood and church, a Buddha smile always on his face, the iPod — full of Ella Fitzgerald, Edith Piaf, “The Lion King” — seemingly permanently attached. He graduated from a special-education high school, traveled to Central America, Europe and Africa with his fathers, volunteered at the church food ministry. On Dec. 12, he became a black belt in tae kwon do. He wanted to live on his own and become an elementary school teacher’s aide.

And then on a trip to Toronto in January with Mr. Vanover, he got sick. Then he got sicker. There was pneumonia, sepsis, acute renal failure. “It’s time,” he said several times, seemingly in his normal, slightly Delphic voice. No one knew quite what he meant, but it didn’t occur to anyone it meant that this was all the time he had. But it was.

Making sense of it all goes far beyond the known facts of Maurice, the Tims and Rocky the Horse: the way his beloved dog, Hunter, keeled over and died a few hours after Maurice passed on; the way Rocky took Mr. Vanover’s head with his own and drew it close to him, as if sharing grief in a hug. Before the funeral service, Rocky, the Tims and Kindoo walked to the church in front of the hearse. Maurice’s priest and friend, the Rev. John A. Mennell, recalled his incandescent smile, his cut-to-the-chase greetings, his unerring instinct for doing the right thing, if not always the proper one.

He recalled the day Maurice was helping with the collection plate.

“You can do better,” Maurice said amiably to one congregant. It was the story of his life. You can do better, he said, and without quite knowing it, everyone did.

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Old 03-25-2011, 12:24 PM   #685
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What a story

It plays almost exactly into what I was talking about though. Imagine what were to become of this had he been kept by his 'parents'? The only thing that makes a straight couple more ideal is the social factor that one might be rejected due to the fact that he or she has homosexual parents.

In which case, it's the homophobia/heterosexism that leads to this, not the 'superiority' of a straight couple of parents.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:18 PM   #686
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Beautiful story and what a lovely family.

I would challenge anyone on this thread who keeps insisting that marriage is only for one man and one woman and that the only ideal parental unit is a mother and a father to look these people in the eye and tell them that their child could have had better.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:25 PM   #687
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This is also worth pointing out:

Quote:
At 3, Maurice was adopted by a couple that requested a child with medical needs. Tim Mannion and Tim Vanover brought Maurice home through the foster care system in 1993.
I can't help but notice that this child languished in the foster care system for 3 years when we have all these "ideal" heterosexual couples out there who could have been raising him.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #688
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I would challenge anyone on this thread who keeps insisting that marriage is only for one man and one woman and that the only ideal parental unit is a mother and a father to look these people in the eye and tell them that their child could have had better.

here ya go:

Quote:
I. THE MOST EFFECTIVE SINGLE SENTENCE:

Extensive and repeated polling agrees that the single most effective message is:

"Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us."

This allows people to express support for tolerance while opposing gay marriage. Some modify it to “People have a right to live as they choose, they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

Language to avoid at all costs: "Ban same-sex marriage." Our base loves this wording. So do supporters of SSM. They know it causes us to lose about ten percentage points in polls. Don’t use it. Say we’re against “redefining marriage” or in favor or “marriage as the union of husband and wife” NEVER “banning same-sex marriage.”



II. MAIN MESSAGE THE 3X5 CARD.

• Marriage is between a husband and wife. The people of [this state] do not want marriage to be anything but that. We do not want government or judges changing that definition for us today or our children tomorrow.

• We need a marriage amendment to settle the gay marriage issue once and for all, so we don’t have it in our face every day for the next ten years.

• Marriage is about bringing together men and women so children can have mothers and fathers.

• Do we want to teach the next generation that one-half of humanity—either mothers or fathers—are dispensable, unimportant? Children are confused enough right now with sexual messages. Let’s not confuse them further.

• Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose; they don’t have a right to redefine marriage for the rest of us.



III. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

1. Are you a bigot? “Why do you want to take away people’s rights?”
“Isn’t it wrong to write discrimination into the constitution?”

A: “Do you really believe people like me who believe mothers and fathers both matter to kids are like bigots and racists? I think that’s pretty offensive, don’t you? Particularly to the 60 percent of African-Americans who oppose same-sex marriage. Marriage as the union of husband and wife isn’t new; it’s not taking away anyone’s rights. It’s common sense.”

2. Isn’t the ban on gay marriage like bans on interracial marriage?

A: “Bans on interracial marriage were about keeping two races apart so that one race could oppress the other. Marriage is about bringing two sexes together, so that children get the love of their own mom and a dad, and women don’t get stuck with the enormous disadvantages of parenting alone.” “Having a parent of two different races is just not the same as being deprived of your mother—or your father.”

3. Why do we need a constitutional amendment? “Isn’t DOMA enough?”

A: “Lawsuits like the one that imposed gay marriage in Massachusetts now threaten marriage in at least 12 other states so far. We need a marriage amendment to settle the issue once and for all, so we don’t have this debate in our face every day. The people get to decide what marriage means. No-end run around the rules by activist judges or grandstanding San-Francisco-style politicians.”

4. What’s the harm from SSM? “How can Adam and Steve hurt your marriage?”

A: “Who gets harmed? The people of this state who lose our right to define marriage as the union of husband and wife, that’s who. That is just not right.”

A: “If courts rule that same-sex marriage is a civil right, then, people like you and me who believe children need moms and dads will be treated like bigots and racists.”

“Religious groups like Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army may lose their tax exemptions, or be denied the use of parks and other public facilities, unless they endorse gay marriage."

“Public schools will teach young children that two men being intimate are just the same as a husband and wife, even when it comes to raising kids.”

“When the idea that children need moms and dads get legally stigmatized as bigotry, the job of parents and faith communities trying to transmit a marriage culture to their kids is going to get a lot harder.”

“One thing is for sure: The people of this state will lose our right to keep marriage as the union of a husband and wife. That’s not right.”

5. Why do you want to interfere with love?

A: “Love is a great thing. But marriage isn’t just any kind of love; it’s the special love of husband and wife for each other and their children.”

6. What about benefits? Don’t gay couples and their kids need the benefits and protections of marriage?”

A: “If medical proxies aren’t working, let’s fix that problem. If people need health care, let’s get them health care. Don’t mess with marriage.”

A: “The issue isn’t benefits, it is marriage. Local folks can decide benefits. This is about the meaning of marriage, our most basic social institution for protecting children. “

7. Isn’t divorce the real threat to marriage?

A: “High rates of divorce are one more reason we should be strengthening marriage, not conducting radical social experiments on it.”

8. Are you saying gays cannot be good parents?

A: “Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.”

9. What about older or infertile couples? If they marry why not same-sex couples?

A: “Every man and woman who marries is capable of giving any child they create (or adopt) a mother and a father. No same-sex couple can do this. It’s apples and oranges.”


Marriage Talking Points - National Organization for Marriage



so, yes, according to the preeminent organization dedicated to the protection of Traditional Marriage, this child would have been much better off with Charlie Sheen or Britney Spears.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:51 PM   #689
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Mercifully these bigots will be obsolete very soon.

Time marches forward, and this fight has already been lost by them. They just haven't accepted it yet.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:13 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Beautiful story and what a lovely family.

I would challenge anyone on this thread who keeps insisting that marriage is only for one man and one woman and that the only ideal parental unit is a mother and a father to look these people in the eye and tell them that their child could have had better.
Well said.
I couldn't come up with words to describe my reaction to the story.
My gut reaction was that I wished I was a better person and could do such a thing to help a child in need.


(BTW--Anyone care to think what the health insurance situation was like for 2 gay men adopting a child with AIDS? I'm guessing that is just an HMO landmine field.)
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:16 PM   #691
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(BTW--Anyone care to think what the health insurance situation was like for 2 gay men adopting a child with AIDS? I'm guessing that is just an HMO landmine field.)

generally speaking, most gay people -- especially gay men -- who adopt children are usually very, very together and they really, really want to be parents. to even get to the point where you are happy and secure enough, mentally and financially, as a gay couple where you want to adopt is quite an accomplishment given the world we live in, and especially the world as it was in 1990. and since it is still so difficult and expensive (especially for men), gay parents they tend to be older, better educated, wealthier, and it's likely that these two men had good lawyers, good doctors, and knew good people who could help them jump through whatever legal loopholes there might be. i'm sure they could easily afford private care for their child, which is probably why they sought out a sick child to begin with. no HMO's needed! i obviously don't know the Tims, but i'm willing to bet that they're as sophisticated and connected and prepared as you could reasonably expect.

so, for all of Iron Horse's banging on about mothers and fathers, if we look objectively, most gays and lesbians who choose to become parents are far more likely than your average straight person to have the characteristics of parents who have successful children. there are no accidental children, no unwanted children, and no unprepared parents when it comes to gay parents.

for people like Iron Horse to take something as complex as parenting and reduce it to the presence of one penis and one vagina, it shows us not only the breathtaking scope of his prejudice, but how little he thinks there is to being a parent at all if the only truly important qualifier is one penis and one vagina.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:19 PM   #692
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generally speaking, most gay people -- especially gay men -- who adopt children are usually very, very together and they really, really want to be parents. to even get to the point where you are happy and secure enough, mentally and financially, as a gay couple where you want to adopt is quite an accomplishment given the world we live in, and especially the world as it was in 1990. and since it is still so difficult and expensive (especially for men), gay parents they tend to be older, better educated, wealthier, and it's likely that these two men had good lawyers, good doctors, and knew good people who could help them jump through whatever legal loopholes there might be. i'm sure they could easily afford private care for their child, which is probably why they sought out a sick child to begin with. no HMO's needed! i obviously don't know the Tims, but i'm willing to bet that they're as sophisticated and connected and prepared as you could reasonably expect.
Oh no doubt they had to be comfortable in their lives to commit to adoption. I just mention it because I take for granted how progressive many Minnesota companies (and our State government) have been for so long in offering partner benefits. I can't imagine how it might be in other places around the U.S., and then complicate it with a child with a preexisting condition. Like you said, they probably could afford whatever, but it is yet another area where gay equality is lacking.
And, what about hospital visitation rights if Maurice had gotten sick in a state that didn't recognize the adoptive rights of gay parents---ugh.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:34 PM   #693
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on the other side of the spectrum
we have the ones that adopt toy dogs and put sweaters and sun glasses on them.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:17 PM   #694
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on the other side of the spectrum
we have the ones that adopt toy dogs and put sweaters and sun glasses on them.


it's terrible. those dogs are being deprived of a mother.

a mother like this:

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Old 03-26-2011, 12:08 AM   #695
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Stealing bandwidth? I got your back Irvine.

/drunk
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:24 AM   #696
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ugh. sorry. try again:

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Old 03-26-2011, 12:25 AM   #697
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nm.
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:28 AM   #698
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That baby is going to kill that poor innocent woman!
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Old 03-28-2011, 07:38 PM   #699
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on the other side of the spectrum
we have the ones that adopt toy dogs and put sweaters and sun glasses on them.


We love our pets and have no problem killing the unborn.
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Old 03-28-2011, 07:51 PM   #700
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There's no correlation between the two things you've put forth.

We also love our born. We also kill unborn animals.
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