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Old 02-24-2011, 10:15 AM   #561
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according to a married friend i have, it's rather emotionally brutal too, to file taxes as "single" federally whereas she files as "married" in Massachusetts.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:08 AM   #562
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What?

The idea of a mother and father is a late development in history?
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The only place that has consistently had a "traditional" family is 1950's clip art.
Yes, it's an incredibly important job to raise children, but who has done that throughout history has been different (and probably changed) in every culture. Grandmothers, grandfathers, great-grandmothers, aunts, siblings, neighbors and nannies have been just as responsible for raising children as mothers. The only "correct" structure is the one that is consistently there for the children. The only formula is caring and attention. There is no specific gender to it. There is no specific relation to it.

Just as conservatives who don't want gay people to marry should be railing against divorce within their own ranks, apparently they also should be railing against daycare. Heaven forbid someone other than mom raise the child.
I maintain that a "nuclear" family structure is largely a late-20th century phenomenon.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:24 AM   #563
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according to a married friend i have, it's rather emotionally brutal too, to file taxes as "single" federally whereas she files as "married" in Massachusetts.
I still feel that government should just get out of the marriage business. Why should I get additional benefits because I was able to cough up $75 (I think it was) at the license bureau (which is what my wife and I did--we eloped.)?

I don't think you can simultaneously promote equality and marriage. The government should ensure equality for all people at all times. Some people aren't fit for marriage for various reasons.

Until we get this, I support government recognizing gay marriage because it is a step toward this equality. I also support legal unions. I see no reason that siblings or a parent and child can't form a government-sanctioned union to get a tax advantage or to get benefits from an employer. This is especially true in circumstances where one is caring for the other who is ill. But again, if we recognized citizens' rights to health care for all, this really wouldn't be necessary.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:07 PM   #564
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I maintain that a "nuclear" family structure is largely a late-20th century phenomenon.


once, after breaking the picture window while playing stickball with friends, Mary said to Jesus, "oh, just WAIT until your father gets home!" and Jesus KNEW he was in for it, because Joseph wouldn't hesitate to bring out the belt on occasion.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:21 PM   #565
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Let me tell you, Jewish mothers do NOT wait for Dad to come home before laying down the law.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:27 PM   #566
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Let me tell you, Jewish mothers do NOT wait for Dad to come home before laying down the law.


you're right.

i was projecting 1950's-style American WASP values upon people who lived over 2,000 years ago, and i'm probably going to get a few things wrong.

i'm sure she gave him a good wallop on his tush and told him to stop being such a shlemiel.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #567
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I really enjoy not being a WASP. I'd be so embarrassed, as strange as that sounds.
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:08 PM   #568
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Gay Marriage Seems to Wane as Conservative Issue

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/us...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:38 AM   #569
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you're right.

i was projecting 1950's-style American WASP values upon people who lived over 2,000 years ago, and i'm probably going to get a few things wrong.
To be clear, the was in reference to the general tactic of "Just WAIT until your father gets home!", not your ascribing it to Jesus' mother, whose preferred disciplinary methods are really anyone's guess. But I actually do remember a friend's mother snapping that at her when I was a kid and my thinking, "What a weird, lame thing to say." It seemed like a way more hostile response than just punishing her on the spot--an "I hate having to put up with you, and can't wait to watch you squirm!" kind of thing. Maybe it was just the way she said it, but...
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:34 AM   #570
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To be clear, the was in reference to the general tactic of "Just WAIT until your father gets home!", not your ascribing it to Jesus' mother, whose preferred disciplinary methods are really anyone's guess. But I actually do remember a friend's mother snapping that at her when I was a kid and my thinking, "What a weird, lame thing to say." It seemed like a way more hostile response than just punishing her on the spot--an "I hate having to put up with you, and can't wait to watch you squirm!" kind of thing. Maybe it was just the way she said it, but...


oh, i was trying to continue to be funny ... in the way that, as you have noted in the past when people read what Jesus may or may not have said about marriage and then they nod self-satisfactorily and say, "yup, honey, that sure sounds like us," we seem to take our contemporary understanding of things like family, or our understanding of interactions between husbands and wives and parents and children and project them onto people in the past. i found it funny to imagine a Normal Rockwell-type scene only with Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, like Jesus got bad grades or something and his gender-appropriate parents gave him a stern-but-loving talking-to at the dinner table, because of course families are timeless and interact in exactly the same way then as we do now. because families are always a mother and a father taking separate but equal roles in parenting and children are raised today much the way they were 2,000 years ago.
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:50 PM   #571
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The best family for a child is a father and mother.

And add love.

That works
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:05 PM   #572
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The best family for a child is a father and mother.

And add love.

That works
Are you actually going to engage in this discussion or are you just going to repeat the same thing over and over without acknowledging anybody else's comments or questions? If it's the latter, that borders on trolling.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:32 PM   #573
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i know, i know ... the whole "obama plays chess while everyone else plays checkers" might be getting a bit old and seem rather worn in the face of reality, but something like this does make you believe it again:



Quote:
Obama sees opening in social-issue split
By Sam Youngman - 03/09/11 06:20 AM ET

President Obama loves Iowa.

In 2008, the state’s first-in-the-nation caucus propelled Obama to front-runner status and satisfied lingering questions about his electability.

In 2012, Iowa could help the president divide and conquer his Republican opponents, staining them — fringe and mainstream candidates alike — with the mark of social conservatism at a time when voters care far more about the economy than gay marriage.

The trap was set last month when Obama ordered the Justice Department to stand down in its defense of the Defense of Marriage Act.

Hot-button social issues are important to Republican Iowa caucus-goers, whom the GOP 2012 crowd is now trying to attract. At a forum on faith Monday night sponsored by the Iowa Faith and Freedom Coalition, a number of likely GOP presidential candidates were ready to pounce when the issue came up.

“We have people in Washington, D.C., who say marriage will be defined however we feel like defining it,” former Minnesota GOP Gov. Tim Pawlenty said at the forum. “No, it won’t. It should be defined as between a man and a woman.”

The 2012 election, however, is more likely to turn on the economy than on gay marriage.

When then-President George W. Bush and Karl Rove pushed for gay-marriage referendums to show up on state ballots in 2004, the national unemployment rate was 5.5 percent.

The issue was a welcome distraction to talk of the Iraq war, the Patriot Act or the president’s failure to capture or kill Osama bin Laden.

But in 2012, social issues could be a distraction for Republicans at a time when voters are worried about more pressing issues like gas prices, home foreclosures and jobs.

Obama would love for voters to focus on social issues instead of the economy, according to Lara Brown, a political science professor at Villanova University.

“In some ways, this parallels, but is the reverse of, the Bush 2004 reelection strategy, which focused on security issues and social conservatism,” Brown said. “As long as Bush stayed on his issues, his campaign stayed ahead. When the Democrats were able to steer the conversation toward the economic issues … the GOP found it difficult to defend their track record.”

Former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) might win the Iowa caucuses. He is spending plenty of time there, and GOP caucus-goers are of the same mind as the anti-abortion-rights, anti-gay-marriage conservative firebrand.

But if 2008 is any guide, winning Iowa would only guarantee Santorum a television show, as it did for that year’s winner, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee.

Democrats know this, and they are delighted to watch Santorum and other likely Republican candidates fall all over themselves to lay claim to the role of the social conscience of the GOP.

Because while Republicans are running to the right on social issues in an effort to win support in Iowa, they could be alienating the independent and centrist voters who will decide the general election. Democrats argue it’s a safe bet that exit polls in November 2012 will not show gay marriage or abortion as the defining issue for the electorate.

“You don’t have to be a political scientist to know people are concerned about the economy,” said one top Democratic official.

Democrats don’t necessarily want to see Santorum win the nomination, and they know such a result is unlikely.

What is likely and welcome in the White House is the effect social-issues candidates will have on the candidates who are in a position to seriously challenge Obama.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney might poll well with voters on economic issues, but what will he say about abortion and marriage issues? How much will he talk about them, and how far right will he have to go to prove his conservative bona fides to a small but powerful group of voters who, in the White House view, are totally misrepresentative of the larger electorate?

“The challenge for the more formidable Republican candidates is to resist the temptation to shake the ideological rattles that get big applause,” said Democratic strategist Jamal Simmons. “If they all jump into the social-issue playpen together, then Obama will have an easier time next fall convincing moderate voters that he is the only adult on the ballot.”

Obama and his team have long sensed opportunity in the identity crisis Republicans are facing as their party tries to balance its new Tea Party zeal for fiscal issues and libertarianism with the socially conservative party of six years ago.

A debate over abortion and gay marriage is just what Democrats want to see happening in Iowa for the next nine months.

“Once you stick your head out on moral issues, you’re labeled,” Santorum said Monday.

He’s right. And the White House will gleefully watch Republicans cover themselves in that label while the rest of the voting public wonders why the GOP is talking about abortion instead of the economy.

Obama sees opening in social-issue split - The Hill's Ballot Box
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:40 PM   #574
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Judging from what I've read in our local papers about the conservative meetings here thus far, that seems to be the track they're taking. Even their financial discussions stray into the social conservatism area in spots. And if their babbling on about issues that they seem way more obsessed with than I do is what helps get Obama reelected, I'm not complaining.

Regardless of what they talk about, though, I'm just hoping more and more Americans will finally, FINALLY wake up to the fact that they have absolutely no plan to get us out of our current situation, just like they haven't in years past, and that they'll pay for this very problem in 2012 once and for all.

Angela
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:51 PM   #575
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With the Maryland House of Delegates set to vote on Friday whether to allow same-sex couples to marry, a Baltimore Ravens linebacker decided to weigh in on the subject.

Brendon Ayanbadejo, who has written about his support for gay marriage before, teamed up with Equality Maryland and posted a video voicing his opinion on love and marriage.

"This should not be a subjective issue. Gay and lesbian couples want to marry for similar reasons as we all do: love and commitment," Ayanbadejo said. "It's time to allow them the opportunity to build a family through marriage. It's a matter of fairness. This is why I'm asking Marylanders to join me in supporting marriage equality for same-sex couples."





This is what he wrote before

First and foremost, church and state are supposed to be completely separated when it comes to the rule of law in the United States. So the religious argument that God meant for only man and woman to be together has no bearing here! America is not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Catholic, or any other religion that is out there. And the pantheon of gods can attest that there are hundreds of them. We are a secular capitalistic democracy. That's it.

It seems that Obama felt the need to embrace Christianity more to fit in. During his presidential campaign he never really sided for or against same-sex marriages. I know the cards were stacked against him with his name and ethnicity but any candidate still has to fit a schoolboy criteria in order to be considered a legitimate candidate. I am at least glad being black is finally off the list as a negative characteristic!

If Britney Spears can party it up in Vegas with one of her boys and go get married on a whim and annul her marriage the next day, why can't a loving same sex couple tie the knot? How could our society grant more rights to a heterosexual one night stand wedding in Vegas than a gay couple that has been together for 3, 5, 10 years of true love? The divorce rate in America is currently 50%. I am willing to bet that same sex marriages have a higher success rate than heterosexual marriages.

Maybe I am a man ahead of my time. However, looking at the former restrictions on human rights in our country starting with slavery, women not being able to vote, blacks being counted as two thirds of a human, segregation, no gays in the military (to list a few) all have gone by the wayside. But now here in 2009 same sex marriages are prohibited. I think we will look back in 10, 20, 30 years and be amazed that gays and lesbians did not have the same rights as every one else. How did this ever happen in the land of the free and the home of the brave? Are we really free?
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:07 PM   #576
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Last night I heard someone comment on the TV show Modern Family, saying that he didn't like it because it "glorified gay marriage"
It seemed strange to me because he's not even a Christian.

I could understand it coming from a Christian, but how can you derive a fear of homosexuality outside of religious morals? (he was raised Christian, however, so perhaps this sort of thing is like the vestigial organ found in evolutionary studies.)
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:02 PM   #577
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The best family for a child is a father and mother.

And add love.

That works
And you can eat shit.


Moderators, reprimand me. I had to.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:22 PM   #578
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You'll probably get more than a reprimand if you keep employing a strategy like that.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:40 PM   #579
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But in all seriousness, that logic is the reason that we can't have equality in this world.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:51 PM   #580
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His logic? Fine, then make that argument. As far it goes I agree. But this is just an internet message board; no one can actually reach through the screen and oppress anyone else, no matter how oppressively familiar their views might feel.
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