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Old 06-18-2010, 07:02 AM   #281
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It's a choice, not a child?

Wait.

No, that's not it.
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Old 06-18-2010, 10:13 PM   #282
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Gay Marriage Should Be Illegal

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Old 06-19-2010, 09:41 AM   #283
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:43 PM   #284
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But but but... they applaud the gay singers.

That should count for something, right?

Yes. Yes they do. As long as they don't go kissin' no boys on the wholesome AMA's.
Oh, hai, Adam Lambert, I'm Looking At You.
Because The Children Will Be Scarred.
(Even if they really don't even care.)

Because that would mean they're actually, really gay. Most of the time, anyway.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:08 AM   #285
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Washington Post

CNN documentary 'Gary and Tony' takes big-hearted look at gay parenthood

By Tom Shales
Tuesday, June 22, 2010; C01

They're parents "like anybody else," says a sympathetic soul, but not really. Not quite. If they were like anybody else, these parents wouldn't both be wearing "Proud Dad" caps at the baby shower.

As the title more than implies, "Gary and Tony Have a Baby," a poignant and captivating CNN documentary that debuts Thursday evening, is the story of a family that's both unusual and a sign of the times. It does not, as the cliche goes, "explore all sides of an issue," but instead offers an intimate and affecting portrait of what happens when partners in a same-sex marriage set out to secure for themselves a blessed event, the limits of biology notwithstanding.

Sensitively but not mawkishly reported by Soledad O'Brien, the hour-long documentary is definitely high-road television -- meaning it's been made as a gesture toward enlightenment and not to grab big ratings, which it probably won't. Not to disparage the Fox News Channel or its right to thrive, but it's hard to imagine Fox doing a documentary as big-hearted and open-minded as this one. Fox docs are virtually always hard-edged, hard-news affairs, including the most recent, "Fox News Reporting: The American Terrorist," an explosive hour about Anwar al-Awlaki, born in the United States but relocated to Yemen for his graduate studies in being rotten. (Other "Fox Reporting" titles that aired this year include "Inside Campaign 2010," and, to commemorate the 40th anniversary, "Summer of Evil: The Manson Murders.")

"Gary and Tony" may be "soft" by comparison, but it's also hard-hitting emotionally. The two men -- Gary Spino and Tony Brown -- face many a bump along the rough road to parenthood. Two New Yorkers in their late 40s who've been living together for 20 years, Spino and Brown must be truly in love or else how could they survive in one of those punishingly puny New York apartments? They're a likable pair if not precisely eloquent. "So cool," one of them says while looking at sonograms of the fetus. "So cool," says the other when they hear the baby is a boy.

So cool? Not "awesome"??

Asked early in the hour why they want to be parents, they come up with the same sort of glib answers, making it sound as if they're trying to be fashionable rather than paternal. But this is a picture medium; shots of Gary and Tony holding newborn Nicholas, and close-ups of their shining eyes as they behold the baby for the first time, are inescapably expressive -- and conclusive.

O'Brien has the men recall the history of their relationship from the beginning, when, like it says in "Some Enchanted Evening," they saw each other "across a crowded room." They had a wedding outside of New York state because the legislature refused to pass a bill acknowledging same-sex marriages. Demonstrators outside the courtroom repeat the canard about gay marriage being a "threat" to the institution, but Gary and Tom justifiably want to know how they are a threat to anybody.

The "threat" argument seems to presuppose that everyone would be homosexual and take up with husbands or wives of their own gender if not for the social strictures placed upon such behavior. And that goes back to the never-ending argument about whether homosexuality is learned or inherited, a "lifestyle" or a genetic predisposition. O'Brien is wise not to rehash all that; it's not a subject that brings out the best in those who never seem to tire of debating it.

You do have to wonder: Could an opponent of same-sex marriage, or even a homophobic extremist, watch the documentary, see Gary and Tony in paternal bliss with their child, and still want to deny them this happiness -- even deny them the right to cohabit? Or, for that matter, to hop into the same sack?

A good-natured Floridian named Holly is the egg donor, although "donor" is not quite the word because she charges the guys $8,000. But another woman has to be employed as the surrogate, to carry the baby to term, and she gets a $30,000 fee (these expenses are in addition to thousands of dollars in legal fees). Cindy, who has a back filled with tattoos, at first finds the male couple "annoying" but later on, they all seem to get along.

When the baby arrives early, and has to be delivered via emergency C-section, Cindy is told she will never be able to have another child (she and husband John -- not their real names -- have two). Her feelings for the baby she gave up grow stronger than she, or the two dads, anticipated, although it appears she was spared a traumatic meltdown. O'Brien might have given us more detail about that.

Asked by the reporter whether they worry about how peers and angry zealots may react to Nicholas when he gets older and attends school, Gary says, "We won't live our lives in fear of what a crazy person will do." That is some kind of courage, isn't it?

"Gary and Tony" is not technically advocacy journalism, but in showing a same-sex couple who successfully navigate the mine field and adopt a baby that one of them helped create, O'Brien makes a case for, at the very least, compassion -- a case that has to be made again and again in this society, or so it seems.

During their courtship, when Gary and Tony were first considering some version of marriage, Gary was appalled to hear a priest rail against same-sex marriage at the church in central Pennsylvania that he attended. Pamphlets were distributed that urged people to "Join the Campaign to Save Marriage in Pennsylvania." Instead of having anyone inveigh against the campaign, the producers simply cut to a tell-tale sign that sits outside the church: "All Are Welcome."

Not really. Not quite.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:43 AM   #286
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It does not, as the cliche goes, "explore all sides of an issue," but instead offers an intimate and affecting portrait of what happens when partners in a same-sex marriage set out to secure for themselves a blessed event, the limits of biology notwithstanding.


we have this set to record.

what, pray tell, would be the various "other sides" of this "issue"?
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Old 06-24-2010, 02:14 PM   #287
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You do have to wonder: Could an opponent of same-sex marriage, or even a homophobic extremist, watch the documentary, see Gary and Tony in paternal bliss with their child, and still want to deny them this happiness -- even deny them the right to cohabit? Or, for that matter, to hop into the same sack?
Anyone who does, I'd just have to imagine that they're cruel, miserable people who clearly don't have happiness in their lives and therefore want to try and deny other people happiness as a result. I don't know how else I could explain somebody doing something that mean.

Sadly, I'm at a friend's place right now and she doesn't have CNN here, so I can't see this (unless they put their documentaries up online, in which case I'll check it out there). I wish Gary and Tony the best of luck with everything in their lives-being fathers, their marriage, and fighting for equal rights.

Angela
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:37 PM   #288
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i know, i know ... a right-wing homophobe revealed as a self-loathing homsexual is hardly news. in fact, we sort of expect it. homophobia is totally gay. but when i read something like this, when you read about people who have every incentive possible to not be gay, who likely genuinely struggle and go through hell over this, doesn't the apparently Herculean task of *not* being gay when you are gay absolutely eviscerate any notions that sexual orientation is somehow chosen or voluntary or that it's just behavior? these poor, pathetic people who need a hug (and to stop hurting people) can't even stay on the wagon.


Quote:
Minn. Pastor Likely To Keep Job Despite Gay Report
Conservative Minneapolis Pastor Reported To Attend Same-sex Support Group Likely Will Keep Job

(AP) MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - A Lutheran pastor ardently critical of allowing gays into the clergy is on leave from his Minneapolis church after a gay magazine reported his attendance at a support group for men struggling with same-sex attraction.

Church officials, however, said Wednesday that the Rev. Tom Brock likely will return to the pulpit at Hope Lutheran Church because he acted in accordance with his faith by attending the group.

A fixture on local cable access shows, Brock regularly broadcasts conservative views on homosexuality and criticizes the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America for liberalizing its gay clergy policy. Lavender Magazine published a story last week about Brock's quiet attendance of the Faith in Action meetings, written by a reporter who falsely posed as a member of the group.

"The fact that he said one thing publicly, and privately he's a homosexual - that's somewhat inconsistent," said Lavender president Stephen Rocheford. "This company has a policy not to out people. The one exception is a public figure who says one thing and does another."

The Lavender article never explicitly said Brock confessed to homosexual activity. It quotes him at one point talking about a recent mission trip to Eastern Europe, of which he says, "I fell into temptation. I was weak."

Hope Lutheran's executive pastor, the Rev. Tom Parrish, said when confronted with the article, Brock "simply said he indeed has been attending this Christian group, both going there and being honest about temptations he has, and is being held accountable so he never would do anything with that temptation."

Parrish said Brock was put on leave from the job of senior pastor at Hope Lutheran when the article came out, but likely will return after an internal investigation.

"What they've done is unconscionable," Parrish said of Lavender's covert infiltration of Faith in Action. The group is the Minnesota affiliate of the Catholic Church's Courage program, described on its website as a "spiritual support system which would assist men and women with same-sex attractions in living chaste lives in fellowship, truth and love."

Brock, who has an unlisted phone number, did not respond to several interview requests made through Parrish.

Lavender is a twice-monthly free magazine Rocheford co-founded in 1995. The article was written by John Townsend, a freelance writer, who does not include details of how he gained access to the group except to say he went through a preliminary interview with its administrator, the Rev. James Livingston. Townsend did not reveal if he actively participated at meetings he attended or simply listened.

Livingston said Townsend gave an alias and attended meetings in Minneapolis over two months this spring.

"I think anybody who appreciates confidential support groups would just be aghast at what they did," Livingston said. "It's one thing to be opposed politically to someone; it's another thing to worm your way into a group like that and expose the secrets of the group."

Rocheford said he did not think it uncommon for media organizations to send reporters undercover to obtain secret information. But Kelly McBride, an expert in journalism ethics at St. Petersburg, Florida's Poynter Institute, said she found Lavender's approach "troubling."

"It's kind of like being a spy," McBride said. "For most groups that deal with something where members of the group find it shameful, there's a strong presumption of confidentiality."

The article graced Lavender's cover, with a large picture of Brock in his vestments over the title, "Antigay Lutheran Pastor Protests Too Much."

Last summer, leaders of the ELCA met in Minneapolis for a national convention where they voted to let individual churches hire noncelibate gay people as clergy as long as they are in committed relationships. In a TV broadcast, Brock called it a "grievous week" and mentioned that a tornado struck the convention hall where the Lutherans were meeting right as they were preparing to vote.[/B]

"Every time the Bible mentions homosexual behavior, it condemns it," Brock said in the broadcast. "It never adds, it's OK if you love each other."

Hope Lutheran officially left the ELCA last year, joining instead the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.

Minn. Pastor Likely To Keep Job Despite Gay Report - CBS News
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:24 PM   #289
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:27 PM   #290
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I was at the opera last night, and, it being LA and all, there were several gay couples there. I was listening to two guys talking about getting sushi as they went up on the escalator, and then I was people-watching while I ate a pre-opera snack.

My thought was: "REALLY? These people are the threat to Western Civilization as we know it? A couple of guys who lovingly fuss over each other's clothes, get sushi before the opera, talk about the car repair bill, and look at each other with mushy looks? THAT's the big deal?"




I wish my world were so small that it was threatened only by that.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:25 PM   #291
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did you go to the Chandler Pavilion ?

I went to the Ahmason, last week ans saw South Pacific

I still need to go to the new Disney Hall.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:33 PM   #292
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Yes, LA Opera is at the Chandler. The Disney Hall is stunning, but the new Segerstrom Hall is more beautiful.

I wanted to see South Pacific, but I just won't be able to. I really liked Mary Poppins, though.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:39 PM   #293
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I was at the opera last night, and, it being LA and all, there were several gay couples there. I was listening to two guys talking about getting sushi as they went up on the escalator, and then I was people-watching while I ate a pre-opera snack.

My thought was: "REALLY? These people are the threat to Western Civilization as we know it? A couple of guys who lovingly fuss over each other's clothes, get sushi before the opera, talk about the car repair bill, and look at each other with mushy looks? THAT's the big deal?"




I wish my world were so small that it was threatened only by that.
Amen to that. Like I've said before, there have been many things, personal and non-personal, that I've lay awake thinking about and worrying about at night in recent years. Things that have kept me tossing and turning and scared me. Gay people getting married never registers on that list.

But that's what people have a tendency to do in this world. When life is getting too uncontrollable and scary for them, they turn their attention to something that isn't a big deal and make it so, to divert themselves from the real problems that they either can't or won't fix or face.

My parents raised me to treat people with the same respect and decency that I would want to be treated with. I'd absolutely hate it if someone told me I couldn't marry who I loved without giving me any justifiable reason as to why, went so far as to outlaw my right to choose who I want to be happy with, so I refuse to do that to anyone else. All I ask is that people in this world are healthy and happy and safe and loved. If we've got that, we're good.

Irvine, again, excellent questions that I would love to hear an answer from the anti-gay crowd to. I just wonder how many more times we have to hear these stories before everyone finally catches on?

And seriously, is there a checklist of required statements that everybody who gets caught in these scenarios must go through when they finally comment on their situation? This...

Quote:
"I fell into temptation. I was weak."
...is exactly what Ted Haggard said as well (and don't even get me started on his pathetic "tour of repentance" where he goes around speaking to people about how to avoid "falling into the same sin he did" and all that BS). On the one hand I feel bad for these people because they clearly need to get past their insecurities and embrace the feelings they've been shamed into repressing, but on the other hand, these people still make me incredibly angry, because of the damage they're doing to other people. You've got your issues with your sexuality, that's your problem to deal with and I hope you sort said issues out, but don't try and make everyone else feel ashamed as well.

Angela
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:49 PM   #294
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Yes, LA Opera is at the Chandler. The Disney Hall is stunning, but the new Segerstrom Hall is more beautiful.

I wanted to see South Pacific, but I just won't be able to. I really liked Mary Poppins, though.
I've been to the Segerstrom

I've got 8th row center, season tickets at the Ahmason, 22 years now.

I've seen some amazing stuff and some mediocre stuff over the years.

I missed Mary Poppins, tickets are still on my fridge, I forgot
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:09 PM   #295
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I was at the opera last night, and, it being LA and all, there were several gay couples there. I was listening to two guys talking about getting sushi as they went up on the escalator, and then I was people-watching while I ate a pre-opera snack.

My thought was: "REALLY? These people are the threat to Western Civilization as we know it? A couple of guys who lovingly fuss over each other's clothes, get sushi before the opera, talk about the car repair bill, and look at each other with mushy looks? THAT's the big deal?"


really? you didn't look at these men and see blow jobs and anal sex with many anonymous partners?

(and that didn't turn you on in a deep, dark place and you had to go run and pray?)
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:53 PM   #296
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really? you didn't look at these men and see blow jobs and anal sex with many anonymous partners?

(and that didn't turn you on in a deep, dark place and you had to go run and pray?)

I'm just fucked up that way. What can I say.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:54 PM   #297
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I missed Mary Poppins, tickets are still on my fridge, I forgot


It was really fun.
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Old 06-24-2010, 11:39 PM   #298
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I was too distracted.

I got hit with an IRS audit, the day before.
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Old 06-25-2010, 12:50 AM   #299
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Ouch. Sorry to hear that .

I've never been to an opera. Been to a Broadway play, but not an opera. Wouldn't mind checking one out sometime.

Angela
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:48 AM   #300
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I was too distracted.

I got hit with an IRS audit, the day before.
That would be distracting.
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